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#Post#: 26758--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: June 19, 2024, 12:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: RhysGrif link ---
>
> Hello,
>
> I will attempt to find the NTO however, I will say that it
won't be likely as that document is 7+ months old, I only found
my original PCN by chance that it was still in my draw.
>
> Based on their document though, their charge certificate
documents that the NTO was dated the 26/10 therefore wouldn't
that double up on the conclusion that the document was dated
26/10 but the second working day falls on a weekend resulting in
28 day period starting on the 30th.
>
--- End Quote ---
Actually the Charge Cert doesn't say that the NTO was dated the
26/10. It says the NTO was served on the 26/10/2023.
Date served has a different meaning to the date of issue or date
of posting. Served is the date the document arrived with you. In
this case it's deemed to be the 2nd working day after the notice
was posted. And in this case the notice is supposed to be posted
the same day as it was issued. So issued and posted on the
26/10/2023. Hence served on the 30/10/2023 which is the second
working day after posting. So the date served on the Charge Cert
is incorrect and misleading. Not to mention adding unnecessary
confusion.
It would be helpful to be able to prove that the NTO you
received is dated the 26/10/2023. So please try and find the
NTO.
#Post#: 26761--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: RhysGrif
Date: June 19, 2024, 12:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Enceladus link ---
>
> [quote author=RhysGrif link=topic=2199.msg26749#msg26749
date=1718816225]
> Hello,
>
> I will attempt to find the NTO however, I will say that it
won't be likely as that document is 7+ months old, I only found
my original PCN by chance that it was still in my draw.
>
> Based on their document though, their charge certificate
documents that the NTO was dated the 26/10 therefore wouldn't
that double up on the conclusion that the document was dated
26/10 but the second working day falls on a weekend resulting in
28 day period starting on the 30th.
>
--- End Quote ---
Actually the Charge Cert doesn't say that the NTO was dated the
26/10. It says the NTO was served on the 26/10/2023.
Date served has a different meaning to the date of issue or date
of posting. Served is the date the document arrived with you. In
this case it's deemed to be the 2nd working day after the notice
was posted. And in this case the notice is supposed to be posted
the same day as it was issued. So issued and posted on the
26/10/2023. Hence served on the 30/10/2023 which is the second
working day after posting. So the date served on the Charge Cert
is incorrect and misleading. Not to mention adding unnecessary
confusion.
It would be helpful to be able to prove that the NTO you
received is dated the 26/10/2023. So please try and find the
NTO.
[/quote]
Hello,
After tipping my room upside down i've found the original nto
i've linked it below.
HTML https://ibb.co/wpH5Npd
#Post#: 26767--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: June 19, 2024, 12:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
In case it disappears from ibb
HTML https://i.ibb.co/MPTFDPg/nto.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/wpH5Npd
#Post#: 26788--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: June 19, 2024, 3:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
For fear of sounding like a record stuck in a groove, it matters
not.
If the full penalty of £70 was paid before a CC was served
(which the council's evidence shows is the case) then that's it,
there is no further penalty to pay.
It's the law.
#Post#: 26794--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: RhysGrif
Date: June 19, 2024, 4:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> For fear of sounding like a record stuck in a groove, it
matters not.
>
> If the full penalty of £70 was paid before a CC was served
(which the council's evidence shows is the case) then that's it,
there is no further penalty to pay.
>
> It's the law.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hello,
Yes the penalty was paid on the 26th. I have the receipt and the
payment on my card transaction.
Could you please advise what my next steps are?
#Post#: 26841--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: June 20, 2024, 2:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> For fear of sounding like a record stuck in a groove, it
matters not.
>
> If the full penalty of £70 was paid before a CC was served
(which the council's evidence shows is the case) then that's it,
there is no further penalty to pay.
>
> It's the law.
>
--- End Quote ---
Really that's a point for the Adjudicator, assuming the case
ever gets to the Adjudicator. Which seems unlikely as the PCN
was fully paid and should have been closed.
Right now the issue is how to word the Out of Time application
to ensure that it gets accepted, and no review will be required.
So that the OP can recover the £464 already paid to the bailiff.
The Witness Statement has a box to tick to the effect that
payment was made, when, how, to whom. The court officer won't be
interested in the lawfulness or otherwise of the Penalty Charge,
only whether the OP has a valid reason for being late with the
Witness Statement. And whether the payment was made within the
28 day relevant period or not.
The OP is late because he believed his in-time payment had
closed the case. He did not receive any Charge Certificate or an
Order for Recovery that would have informed him that the matter
was not closed. And hence did not know that a Witness Statement
was required.
#Post#: 26901--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: RhysGrif
Date: June 20, 2024, 10:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Enceladus link ---
>
> [quote author=H C Andersen link=topic=2199.msg26788#msg26788
date=1718828543]
> For fear of sounding like a record stuck in a groove, it
matters not.
>
> If the full penalty of £70 was paid before a CC was served
(which the council's evidence shows is the case) then that's it,
there is no further penalty to pay.
>
> It's the law.
>
--- End Quote ---
Really that's a point for the Adjudicator, assuming the case
ever gets to the Adjudicator. Which seems unlikely as the PCN
was fully paid and should have been closed.
Right now the issue is how to word the Out of Time application
to ensure that it gets accepted, and no review will be required.
So that the OP can recover the £464 already paid to the bailiff.
The Witness Statement has a box to tick to the effect that
payment was made, when, how, to whom. The court officer won't be
interested in the lawfulness or otherwise of the Penalty Charge,
only whether the OP has a valid reason for being late with the
Witness Statement. And whether the payment was made within the
28 day relevant period or not.
The OP is late because he believed his in-time payment had
closed the case. He did not receive any Charge Certificate or an
Order for Recovery that would have informed him that the matter
was not closed. And hence did not know that a Witness Statement
was required.
[/quote]
Hello,
Where do I go from here. Do I have to fill out the ‘Out of Time’
document & ‘Witness statement’
#Post#: 26914--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: June 20, 2024, 12:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I suggest you do both i.e. submit an OOT and write to the
council.
I have prepared a draft for comment.
Head of Parking Services
Swansea *****
******
PCN - ************
I refer to the above and the applicable PCN enforcement
timetable which you recently provided. I stress this is your
evidence.
My frustration at being pursued for a penalty is now matched by
my annoyance that a blatantly unlawful demand is being made by
the council, which situation should have been clear to anyone
who cared to exercise proper oversight of the process. Your
timeline is attached from which I have drawn the following:
1. An entry to the effect that a NTO was dated and posted 25
Oct.
2. An entry to the effect that another NTO was produced, dated
and posted on 26 Oct.
3. An entry to the effect that a CC was produced dated and
posted on 27 Nov.
4. An entry showing payment of £70 received 27Nov.
5. An entry showing a CC posted 27th Nov. which cited and relied
upon the NTO issued 26 Oct. which on the basis of the council's
evidence was an unlawful notice.
6. A copy of the NTO dated 26 Oct. provided in the council's
evidence.
From the above the following are apparent:
a. Unlawful act of issuing a second NTO on 26 Oct.
b. Even if the CC was legitimate, the council's legal right to
demand the surcharge penalty arose only on 29 Nov. when the CC
(posted on 27 Nov.) was served;
c. The council acted unlawfully when they refused payment of the
extant, unsurcharged, penalty on 27 Nov.
d. Pursuing the owner on the basis of an unlawful NTO and CC.
I have paid the Enforcement Agent's unlawful demand only in
order to prevent my car being removed and I shall now submit an
Out of Time application to the Traffic Enforcement Centre. Given
the council's actions to date, I anticipate that I shall be
successful and that the council would not object to my
application. However, given the above the authority might
consider it prudent to cancel the Charge Certificate and Order
for Recovery now rather than have to refer the matter to the
adjudicator.
In this respect, having been apprised of your actions should the
council object to my submission and should this be refused then
I would refer this matter to your Complaints Procedure and,
should it be necessary, the Ombudsman because such an action
could only be seen as a failure to discharge the council's
public duty to act fairly and reasonably.
I have copied this letter to your Enforcement Agents for
information.
YF
#Post#: 26919--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: June 20, 2024, 1:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I would add an item between 3 & 4. Or perhaps put it at 7.
"A copy of a receipt, issued by the Council, for payment of £70
dated the 26 Nov".
The OP can't be held responsible for delays in applying payments
to the PCN account. The charge was paid on the 26th. The OP has
told us that his bank statement also says the 26th.
The Council only became entitled to issue a Charge Certificate
on the 27th Nov, if they believe the payment was late. They
should have ensured that any payments already made were applied
before they did so. The CC as issued, but not received, says
£105.
#Post#: 26923--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: NighSoul
Date: June 20, 2024, 1:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
You may revise the wording of the communication to ensure it can
be used as evidence if the council does not cooperate and you
need to present this letter to the Ombudsman or make a claim for
a breach.
Dear Parking Services
I refer to the above matter and the applicable PCN enforcement
timetable you recently provided. I emphasise that this is your
evidence.
My frustration at being pursued for a penalty is now compounded
by my annoyance at the council's blatantly unlawful demand,
which should have been evident with proper oversight. Your
timeline is attached, from which I have concluded the following:
An entry indicates that a Notice to Owner (NTO) was dated and
posted on 25 Oct.
Another entry shows a second NTO was produced, dated, and posted
on 26 Oct.
An entry states a Charge Certificate (CC) was produced, dated,
and posted on 27 Nov.
An entry shows payment of £70 received on 27 Nov.
An entry shows a CC posted on 27 Nov., citing and relying upon
the NTO issued on 26 Oct., which, based on the council's
evidence, was an unlawful notice.
A copy of the NTO dated 26 Oct. is provided in the council's
evidence.
A copy of a receipt issued by the Council for payment of £70
dated 26 November 2023.
The following points are evident from the above:
a. The unlawful act of issuing a second NTO on 26 Oct.
b. Even if the CC was legitimate, the council's legal right to
demand the surcharge penalty arose only on 29 Nov. when the CC
(posted on 27 Nov.) was served.
c. The council acted unlawfully by refusing payment of the
extant, unsurcharged penalty on 27 Nov.
d and pursuing the owner based on an unlawful NTO and CC.
The Enforcement Agent has taken an unlawful money transfer of
£514 under the pain of removing my car. I will now file an Out
of Time application to the Traffic Enforcement Centre.
Given the council's actions to date, I expect a successful
outcome and anticipate that the council will not object to my
application. However, considering the above, it would be in the
authority's best interest to cancel the Charge Certificate and
Order for Recovery now rather than referring the matter to the
adjudicator.
In this context, having been made aware of your actions, should
the council object to my submission and it be refused, I will
refer this matter to your Complaints Procedure and, if
necessary, the Ombudsman. Such action could only be seen as a
failure to discharge the council's public duty to act fairly and
reasonably.
My bank details for the return of the money are as follows
[provide bank details here]. Once the money is returned, I will
consider the matter solved.
I have copied your enforcement agent for their information.
*****************************************************
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