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#Post#: 26618--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: RhysGrif
Date: June 18, 2024, 3:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
>
>
> Out of time and Order for Recovery.
>
> And the answer to my question is?
>
--- End Quote ---
Hello,
I wasn't on any holidays if that's what you mean. I live
permanently at this address, so would've been home or in work.
However, I have never seen this 'OfR' or 'Charge Certificate'
document in my life.
#Post#: 26625--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: Neil B
Date: June 18, 2024, 4:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: RhysGrif link ---
>
> [quote author=H C Andersen link=topic=2199.msg26616#msg26616
date=1718743038]
>
>
> Out of time and Order for Recovery.
>
> And the answer to my question is?
>
--- End Quote ---
Hello,
I wasn't on any holidays if that's what you mean. I live
permanently at this address, so would've been home or in work.
However, I have never seen this 'OfR' or 'Charge Certificate'
document in my life.
[/quote]
We've both been doing this for too many years than we care to
recall. You wouldn't believ how many times that we've queried
address details to later be told "oh the road name is wrong but
I didn't think it mattered", often when it seriously affects the
likely outcome of a case.
I asked you to compare the address on the notices to your V5C;
did you really do that.
These things can boil down to just one digit or letter being
wrong anywhere, even the general format of layout of the
address. So tell me again that you've really looked in detail
---- because, while you have a strong technical chance of
success, this is still crucial to any court application you may
make.
#Post#: 26630--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: RhysGrif
Date: June 18, 2024, 4:54 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Neil B link ---
>
> [quote author=RhysGrif link=topic=2199.msg26618#msg26618
date=1718743316]
> [quote author=H C Andersen link=topic=2199.msg26616#msg26616
date=1718743038]
>
>
> Out of time and Order for Recovery.
>
> And the answer to my question is?
>
--- End Quote ---
Hello,
I wasn't on any holidays if that's what you mean. I live
permanently at this address, so would've been home or in work.
However, I have never seen this 'OfR' or 'Charge Certificate'
document in my life.
[/quote]
We've both been doing this for too many years than we care to
recall. You wouldn't believ how many times that we've queried
address details to later be told "oh the road name is wrong but
I didn't think it mattered", often when it seriously affects the
likely outcome of a case.
I asked you to compare the address on the notices to your V5C;
did you really do that.
These things can boil down to just one digit or letter being
wrong anywhere, even the general format of layout of the
address. So tell me again that you've really looked in detail
---- because, while you have a strong technical chance of
success, this is still crucial to any court application you may
make.
[/quote]
Hello,
I have compared the V5C & the document that Swansea council
attached in the file & both addresses match.
However, slightest possibility there is a street 10 mins away
from my address which ends in ‘Street’ and my address ends in
‘Road’. Both address have same name and same 4 starting post
codes ‘**11’
My house has received postage from similar street name before so
it’s not an impossible scenario.
#Post#: 26647--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: June 18, 2024, 6:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
26/10/2023 = Thurs = Date of NTO & presumed date of posting
30/10/2023 = Mon = 2nd working day after posting & deemed date
of service = day 1 of 28 day period
26/11/2023 = Sun = Day 28 of 28 day period = date of payment
made
So the payment was made in-time.
This is further supported by the OP's statement that the
Council's payment system only asked for £70 when he made the
payment. The Charge Certificate had not yet been issued so the
payment demanded hadn't yet incremented.
The case progression history tells us that the Charge Cert was
issued on Monday the 27th Nov 2023 at 10:52. However the £70
payment was only credited to the account at 21:30 on Monday the
27th Nov 2023.
So I would say you can legitimately submit a Witness Statement
and Out of Time application as you have a receipt that shows
payment was actually made at 17:33:45 on Sun 26th Nov 2023,
using the ground "The penalty charge has been paid in full".
However please don't submit anything until we have the facts
clear. You only have one shot at getting this right.
The case progression does not mention any representations or a
Notice of Rejection. The OP has told us "I paid my PCN in
November 2023 after appealing the charge. Didn’t win my appeal
so later paid the full £70 for my PCN." This remains
unexplained.
The OP denies receipt of the Charge Cert of the 27th Nov 2023
and the Order for Recovery posted on the 20th Dec 2023.
#Post#: 26664--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: RhysGrif
Date: June 19, 2024, 1:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Enceladus link ---
>
> 26/10/2023 = Thurs = Date of NTO & presumed date of posting
> 30/10/2023 = Mon = 2nd working day after posting & deemed date
of service = day 1 of 28 day period
> 26/11/2023 = Sun = Day 28 of 28 day period = date of payment
made
>
> So the payment was made in-time.
> This is further supported by the OP's statement that the
Council's payment system only asked for £70 when he made the
payment. The Charge Certificate had not yet been issued so the
payment demanded hadn't yet incremented.
>
> The case progression history tells us that the Charge Cert was
issued on Monday the 27th Nov 2023 at 10:52. However the £70
payment was only credited to the account at 21:30 on Monday the
27th Nov 2023.
>
> So I would say you can legitimately submit a Witness Statement
and Out of Time application as you have a receipt that shows
payment was actually made at 17:33:45 on Sun 26th Nov 2023,
using the ground "The penalty charge has been paid in full".
>
> However please don't submit anything until we have the facts
clear. You only have one shot at getting this right.
>
> The case progression does not mention any representations or a
Notice of Rejection. The OP has told us "I paid my PCN in
November 2023 after appealing the charge. Didn’t win my appeal
so later paid the full £70 for my PCN." This remains
unexplained.
>
> The OP denies receipt of the Charge Cert of the 27th Nov 2023
and the Order for Recovery posted on the 20th Dec 2023.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hello,
I always have the payment via my bank logged at the same time as
the receipt.
I’m sure that I appealed the parking ticket however the NtO, I
had seen and that document looks familiar which is why my
payment is 28 days based on that document date.
But I have not seen the charge certificate & the NfR.
#Post#: 26706--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: June 19, 2024, 7:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
OP, let me attempt to simplify this for you.
Despite your contradictory statements e.g. references to 'your
parents' address, which is where you live permanently, and
Enceladus' attempt to get a straight answer to whether you
received a NTO which you responded to by showing docs issued by
the council (issuing and service being different) etc. now that
we've seen the NTO and the council's PCN timeline IMO this case
is essentially very simple.
The council's PCN timeline evidence shows:
An entry to the effect that a NTO was dated and posted 25 Oct.
An entry to the effect that another NTO was produced, dated and
posted on 26 Oct. (which in law was deemed served Mon. 30th and
which in law prevented the authority from applying the surcharge
until 27 Nov.)(and which was unlawful if indeed they'd issued
another on 25th)
An entry to the effect that a CC was produced dated and posted
on 27 Nov.
An entry showing payment of £70 received 27Nov.
An entry showing a CC posted 27th Nov.
A separate response to you stating payment made 26 Nov.
Even shorter version:
CC issued 27 Nov. Served 29th on which date and on which date
ONLY you were liable for the increased penalty. You are NOT
liable simply because a 28-day target was exceeded, this only
permits them to serve a CC.
Write to the morons and set out your conditions for not going
public with their stupidity and unlawful actions:
1. Cancel PCN;
2. Apology;
3. An undertaking to review their procedures.
Wait for others.
#Post#: 26709--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: June 19, 2024, 8:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I would just add to HCA's response above.
The copy of the NTO visible in the spaghetti of the posted
documents is dated the 26th Oct 2023. There isn't one dated the
25th Oct albeit the case progression suggests that one was
printed and posted on the 25th Oct.
&
The receipt for the payment of £70 on the 26th Nov 2023 appears
to be an email receipt from Swansea. So their own payment system
confirms that the payment was made on the 26th Nov.
[member=1978]RhysGrif[/member] It would be helpful if can dig
out the Notice to Owner that you seem to have received and
confirm the date of issue? IE the document from which you
deduced that the payment deadline was the 26th Nov 2023. Better
yet post up the NTO so we can check it properly.
[member=1978]RhysGrif[/member] what leads you to believe you
"appealed" and were rejected? There is no mention in the case
progression history of any informal or formal representations
(challenges) against the PCN or the NTO. So there is no
rejection letter.
#Post#: 26715--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: June 19, 2024, 8:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
All that's true and hammers more nails into their coffin.
However, whether one or more NTOs were issued at any time isn't
the killer, it's that the lawful penalty may only be a max. of
£70 unless a CC is served. NOT issued, but served.
And the CC in evidence was posted on 27 Nov. therefore served
29th.
The council MUST BY LAW accept the penalty of £70 before this
date.
#Post#: 26733--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: June 19, 2024, 10:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I also note that the Charge Certificate mentions an NTO served
on the 26th Oct, which isn't correct even if the NTO was printed
and posted on the 25th Oct.
However right now the issue is the wording to be used on the
OP's Out of Time application. A valid reason for being late with
the Witness Statement. If that is successful then the £464 paid
to the bailiff should be refunded. If not successful, then an
N244 review will be required at further expense.
I doubt if the case will reach the Adjudicator as an appeal
since the OP paid the PCN and that should have closed the case.
Witness Statement TE9
HTML https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62e1492bd3bf7f2d789b8d7e/Parking_TE9.pdf
Out of Time application TE7
HTML https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62bebaeee90e073f56752a86/TE7_0622_save.pdf
Here is a draft of what could go into the TE7 OOT. Please wait
for others to comment. The objective is to keep it simple.
This Penalty Charge Notice was paid in full and within the time
limit. I received an email payment receipt dated the 26th Nov
2023, copy included below.
I did not receive any further correspondence or notices from the
Council indicating that the Penalty Charge remained unsatisfied.
In particular I did not receive an Order for Recovery of Unpaid
Penalty Charge and was consequently unaware of the need to
submit a Witness Statement, within the time limit, to the effect
that the Penalty Charge Notice had been paid.
The Penalty Charge Notice was paid in full within the 28 days
(beginning with the date of service) permitted by the Notice to
Owner dated and posted the 26th Oct 2023 and thus deemed served
on the 30th Oct 2023.
#Post#: 26749--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
DIR By: RhysGrif
Date: June 19, 2024, 11:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Enceladus link ---
>
> I would just add to HCA's response above.
>
> The copy of the NTO visible in the spaghetti of the posted
documents is dated the 26th Oct 2023. There isn't one dated the
25th Oct albeit the case progression suggests that one was
printed and posted on the 25th Oct.
> &
> The receipt for the payment of £70 on the 26th Nov 2023
appears to be an email receipt from Swansea. So their own
payment system confirms that the payment was made on the 26th
Nov.
>
> [member=1978]RhysGrif[/member] It would be helpful if can dig
out the Notice to Owner that you seem to have received and
confirm the date of issue? IE the document from which you
deduced that the payment deadline was the 26th Nov 2023. Better
yet post up the NTO so we can check it properly.
>
> [member=1978]RhysGrif[/member] what leads you to believe you
"appealed" and were rejected? There is no mention in the case
progression history of any informal or formal representations
(challenges) against the PCN or the NTO. So there is no
rejection letter.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hello,
I will attempt to find the NTO however, I will say that it won't
be likely as that document is 7+ months old, I only found my
original PCN by chance that it was still in my draw.
Based on their document though, their charge certificate
documents that the NTO was dated the 26/10 therefore wouldn't
that double up on the conclusion that the document was dated
26/10 but the second working day falls on a weekend resulting in
28 day period ending on the 30th.
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