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#Post#: 25742--------------------------------------------------
Bailiff - Brent Council, 50 Performing a prohibited turn,
Glacier Way, Brent
DIR By: raphaeldonatello
Date: June 12, 2024, 4:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hello all, I have found this site via an MSE forum post.
Unfortunately, I did not find it when I previously tried to find
out some information to try to resolve a bad situation I find
myself in:
I have a PCN against me from Brent Council which I did not
receive. I was unaware of this until February this year, due to
a bailiff attending my property. I was unaware of the
contravention, and the PCN and then when the bailiff turned up
at my door I was travelling in the Philippines. I seen the lady
on my camera but assumed she was a cold-caller as we get a lot
of them in my area. When I returned home on 1st February, I was
greeted by a hand-written letter from her.
I immediately tried to find out what was happening but couldn't
find any further information than what was provided on the
hand-written letter and a letter which had been delivered about
2 weeks earlier (which I hadn't received due to being in Asia).
When I tried calling the number provided - I got no answer.
When I contacted CDER Group, I was met with hostility and
basically told pay it or else, so I contacted Citizen's Advice
and Brent Council. Brent Council were helpful and the person I
spoke with advised that I contact County Court "to file an out
of time declaration on grounds that I did not receive
correspondence" - and provided me the phone number (I quote this
as I made a note of it at the time and I still have it). I spoke
with someone at TEC who emailed me Forms PE2 and PE3 which I
completed and contacted a local lawyer to witness me signing at
their earliest opportunity. I then scanned them and sent them
back to the TEC by email - receiving an email confirmation on
12/2/24.
Thereafter, I haven't heard anything until today when I received
a letter from TEC to say that my "application to file a
Statutory Declaration/Witness Statement out of time ... has been
refused."
I am honestly feeling angry and am at a complete loss.
I have, since filing the forms, found out where the
contravention is alleged and it is somewhere that I have visited
and, indeed, have incorrectly turned right many times in the
past - as the signage is/ was faded. So, I now understand and
accept that I have indeed performed a turn where I should not
have done (and have since followed the left-turn only when
visiting that part of road); I accept full responsibility for
the error on my part, but I didn't know about it or receive any
PCN for it until a bailiff turned up at my door.
If I had received the PCN then I'd have checked it and, upon
finding that I'd been in the wrong - paid the PCN; just as I
have done on 2 other previous occasions during my driving
lifetime.
I would be truly grateful for any help on how I could move
forward with this as I really feel let down by the system right
now and a) worrying about bailiffs, and b) having a very
significant fine outstanding is causing huge stress on me - all
for something I was unaware of and did not receive the correct
paperwork for.
Please see attached documents below of CDER Paperwork, TEC Forms
PE2 and PE3, and TEC's letter to myself received today.
Thanks,
MPM.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/x5KxHMj.jpg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/A7nUIhw.jpg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/IH5s6t2.jpg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/rSoOQNb.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/EfwM55v.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/wQVVe2P.jpg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/mb5kbdx.png
#Post#: 26086--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiff - Brent Council, 50 Performing a prohibited turn,
Glacier Way, Brent
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: June 14, 2024, 3:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Was the address on your V5C Registration Certificate up-to-date
when the contravention occurred ?
Most cases we see on here where bailiffs are at the door, and
the OP knows nothing about it are due to failure to keep the V5C
up-to-date. PCNs issued by post use the V5C address as supplied
to the council by DVLA. They have no legal right to look
anywhere else.
#Post#: 26166--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiff - Brent Council, 50 Performing a prohibited turn,
Glacier Way, Brent
DIR By: raphaeldonatello
Date: June 15, 2024, 11:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> Was the address on your V5C Registration Certificate
up-to-date when the contravention occurred ?
>
> Most cases we see on here where bailiffs are at the door, and
the OP knows nothing about it are due to failure to keep the V5C
up-to-date. PCNs issued by post use the V5C address as supplied
to the council by DVLA. They have no legal right to look
anywhere else.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hi, thanks for your reply. I was quite sure that it was correct
but I have just double checked and the V5C has my name and
address correctly on both the front of it where it has been
posted and also section 3.
I tried to find the date of the V5C as the registration was
changed over for the car but I wasn't sure when I did that. Both
section 3 and section 6 have a date in the bottom left which is
18/11/22.
The contravention was on 22/7/23, so the V5C had the correct
name and address when the contravention occurred.
I am very nervous over this as I am in a similar situation to
another current poster, in that the refusal letter from TEC is
dated 24th May but I didn't receive it until Wednesday - 12th
June, and it mentions about only having 14 days to submit an
N244.
I am anxiously awaiting bailiffs to come knocking again and am
feeling like I just don't know what options I have or where to
turn to.
Thanks,
MPM.
#Post#: 26186--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiff - Brent Council, 50 Performing a prohibited turn,
Glacier Way, Brent
DIR By: NightSoul
Date: June 15, 2024, 2:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Before deciding to file an N244 for review, these reviews can be
costly and are often denied.
You need to gather more details from your narrative,
specifically regarding whether the address on the warrant of
control is your current address. You mentioned being in Asia,
but we need to clarify the dates and whether your trip abroad
coincided with the contravention debt or the issue date on the
Notice of Enforcement (NOE).
It is crucial to understand that receiving an NOE indicates that
the warrant address is current. This is significant as it means
the NOE would have been sent to a different address, namely the
one on the contravention vehicle's V5.
Your car is at risk of bailiff enforcement because the
suspension of the enforcement power was lifted when the TEC
refused your application. If your car is on finance, it is
exempt from enforcement. To offer some reassurance, paragraph
18(a)(d) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement
Act 2007 prohibits bailiffs from using force to enter a domestic
property when recovering an unpaid traffic contravention debt.
Therefore, the most you can expect is strong language and a
series of demanding letters before the bailiffs move on.
#Post#: 26244--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiff - Brent Council, 50 Performing a prohibited turn,
Glacier Way, Brent
DIR By: raphaeldonatello
Date: June 16, 2024, 6:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: NightSoul link ---
>
> Before deciding to file an N244 for review, these reviews can
be costly and are often denied.
> You need to gather more details from your narrative,
specifically regarding whether the address on the warrant of
control is your current address. You mentioned being in Asia,
but we need to clarify the dates and whether your trip abroad
coincided with the contravention debt or the issue date on the
Notice of Enforcement (NOE).
>
> It is crucial to understand that receiving an NOE indicates
that the warrant address is current. This is significant as it
means the NOE would have been sent to a different address,
namely the one on the contravention vehicle's V5.
>
> Your car is at risk of bailiff enforcement because the
suspension of the enforcement power was lifted when the TEC
refused your application. If your car is on finance, it is
exempt from enforcement. To offer some reassurance, paragraph
18(a)(d) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement
Act 2007 prohibits bailiffs from using force to enter a domestic
property when recovering an unpaid traffic contravention debt.
Therefore, the most you can expect is strong language and a
series of demanding letters before the bailiffs move on.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you for the reply.
Re: being in Asia, that was January this year, which is when
CDER sent the first letter I attached - dated 15/1/24.
Thereafter, an enforcement agent attended my property and put
the second (hand-written) letter through my door on 31/1/24. I
then returned from Asia on 1/2/24 and seen these letters. The
third and final letter came in the post that same week.
Meanwhile, that same week, I had contacted Citizen's Advice and
Brent Council and it was Brent Council who advised me of the TEC
and to file an out of time statement as I hadn't received any
PCN.
As to the contravention, it was on 22/7/23 (according to CDER
Group letters). I don't deny that I did it; I was unaware at the
time that it was a contravention (due to the signage being poor)
but I fully admit to turning right in a left-only junction -
which from looking on Google, this is known to be a common spot
for people getting tickets.
My issue is that I never received a PCN regarding it and the
first I knew of it was when I returned from Asia on 1/2/24 to
find that I had 2 letters from CDER Group and another following
shortly thereafter.
This is why I filed for the out of time, stating I hadn't known
anything about a) the contravention or b) that I had a PCN
against me for it.
I expected that I'd then receive the original PCN and I'd accept
the error of my way and pay the fine. However, when I received
the letter from TEC on Wednesday saying it had been refused, I'm
just at a complete loss. I can't afford to go to lawyers and get
them involved and I can't afford the absurd fee that the
enforcement company have applied so that's why I'm worried about
them returning.
Thank you for trying to ease the nerves somewhat. However, my
car is parked on my driveway - so, if they return then they
could take it?
This is a situation I have never found myself in before and is
all because I turned right at a stupid junction which has poor
signage and which many other people have done the same thing -
for years. I didn't receive a PCN so I knew nothing about it but
I've then tried to put things right and get the PCN applied so I
can accept fault and pay it - only to have the 'system' say no.
And why, exactly? Because someone on a power trip decided so?
This has made me extremely frustrated with our legal system.
When I try to put things right, it's simply whether someone at
TEC decides so?
I am and have been completely willing to accept fault and pay
the PCN since finding out about it but CDER Group referencing my
"continual and wilful refusal to pay [my] outstanding debt" and
their additional, ludicrous, fees are two things which I am not
willing to accept.
From your response, I think you are suggesting that it may not
be best to submit an N244. But if I don't then what options do I
have? Wait for bailiffs to move on? What if they don't? Is there
anything I can do to resolve all of this? If I sell the car or
change the owner of the car to my mother-in-law, will that
prevent them from being able to take the car away?
Thanks,
MPM
#Post#: 26261--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiff - Brent Council, 50 Performing a prohibited turn,
Glacier Way, Brent
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: June 16, 2024, 10:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
This case is a gamble.
Right now the bill is £514 to settle.
or
You could apply for a review via an N244 application at £119.
Assuming your review is successful the Order for Recovery will
be revoked and the Charge Certificate cancelled. The Council
will have to call off the bailiffs. The Council will re-serve
the PCN and you should be able to challenge and appeal with a
potential outcome of £130. Or you could pay it at the discount
of £65.
The video shows that you contravened the no right turn sign. The
register of appeals show that no similar cases at this location
have been allowed in the past 30 months. So if you can't get the
PCN cancelled altogether the best possible outcome would be £184
(£119 + £65).
You'll have to gamble £119 to get the total bill down to £184.
If on the other hand the District Judge refuses your N244 review
the bill will be £633 (£119 + £514).
The positive note in this is that the address held by the DVLA
at the time of the alleged contravention was current and
correct. You've checked that haven't you? You can't be held
responsible for post which the Royal Mail has failed to deliver.
It's a gamble and you'll have to make a simple but credible case
that you did not receive the PCN or the Order for Recovery.
Trouble is the PCN is not all that's missing. What happened to
the Charge Certificate and the Order for Recovery? That's three
statutory documents sent at different times that have apparently
gone missing. That's damaging your credibility.
So way up the finances and decide if you want to go the N244
review route or not?
#Post#: 26263--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiff - Brent Council, 50 Performing a prohibited turn,
Glacier Way, Brent
DIR By: Neil B
Date: June 16, 2024, 10:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: raphaeldonatello link ---
>
> I didn't receive a PCN so I knew nothing about it
>
--- End Quote ---
It was three notices in total that you didn't receive
I can't see any where here or, more importantly, on the PE2
where you've offered an explanation for why that was or might
have been?
#Post#: 26301--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiff - Brent Council, 50 Performing a prohibited turn,
Glacier Way, Brent
DIR By: raphaeldonatello
Date: June 16, 2024, 2:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Enceladus link ---
>
> This case is a gamble.
> Right now the bill is £514 to settle.
> or
> You could apply for a review via an N244 application at £119.
>
> Assuming your review is successful the Order for Recovery will
be revoked and the Charge Certificate cancelled. The Council
will have to call off the bailiffs. The Council will re-serve
the PCN and you should be able to challenge and appeal with a
potential outcome of £130. Or you could pay it at the discount
of £65.
>
> The video shows that you contravened the no right turn sign.
The register of appeals show that no similar cases at this
location have been allowed in the past 30 months. So if you
can't get the PCN cancelled altogether the best possible outcome
would be £184 (£119 + £65).
>
> You'll have to gamble £119 to get the total bill down to £184.
If on the other hand the District Judge refuses your N244 review
the bill will be £633 (£119 + £514).
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you for your time and message above, it was a very helpful
explanation and I think an expansion of the point made by
NightSoul in relation to me making a decision about how to move
forward.
--- Quote from: Enceladus link ---
>
> The positive note in this is that the address held by the DVLA
at the time of the alleged contravention was current and
correct. You've checked that haven't you? You can't be held
responsible for post which the Royal Mail has failed to deliver.
It's a gamble and you'll have to make a simple but credible case
that you did not receive the PCN or the Order for Recovery.
>
> Trouble is the PCN is not all that's missing. What happened to
the Charge Certificate and the Order for Recovery? That's three
statutory documents sent at different times that have apparently
gone missing. That's damaging your credibility.
>
> So way up the finances and decide if you want to go the N244
review route or not?
>
--- End Quote ---
I have checked the V5C which has 18/11/22 in sections 3 and 6 -
the name and address on the V5C is correct and is still my
current address.
I haven't heard of the other 2 until your message. With that, I
can easily understand what you're saying about 3 things not
arriving and my 'credibility'. I simply don't have an answer for
that, except that I'm only just learning about these and if they
were sent to me, I didn't receive them. I just don't know what
else I can say about this - I'm trying to explain something
which I had no knowledge of; how am I supposed to do that?
This is an unbelievable situation and I can't believe I've found
myself in it. I am grateful for your explanation, or summary, of
my options but I just don't know what to do; I am under huge
stress over this and for reasons not of my own doing. If I'd
received the PCN then I'd have realised my mistake and I'd have
paid it; just as I have done for 2 previous PCN's I received
years ago.
--- Quote from: Neil B link ---
>
> [quote author=raphaeldonatello
link=topic=2193.msg26244#msg26244 date=1718538244]
> I didn't receive a PCN so I knew nothing about it
>
--- End Quote ---
It was three notices in total that you didn't receive
I can't see any where here or, more importantly, on the PE2
where you've offered an explanation for why that was or might
have been?
[/quote]
I have just been made aware of this by Enceladus in the previous
post and as mentioned, I was unaware of these. That is why I did
not mention them in the PE2 or PE3.
Moreover, I don't know how to explain why I didn't receive them.
How am I supposed to explain something a) I didn't know about,
and b) which was out of my control?
Alas, I wish I had found this forum after Brent Council advised
me to contact TEC and submit an out of time form - when I tried
to find information regarding submitting the forms. However, I
only found them after Google directed me from my search terms of
'TEC PE2 refusal', etc.
I didn't then expect that someone would 'refuse' my form - which
I signed in front of a lawyer and repeated back that my
declaration was correct and truthful - under oath, and
punishable under something to do with perjury law.
Isn't this be a reasonable line of defence if I were to submit
an N244? I did not receive the PCN, nor any of the other
'statutory documents' that I have just been made aware of. I did
not mention these other documents in my PE2 or PE3 because I did
not know of them - because I did not receive them and I'm not a
lawyer so I've never heard of them. However, what I did do was
declare in the presence of a lawyer, having been informed that
incorrectly stating such would have been an act of perjury, that
I had no knowledge of this contravention (which I do not contest
the legitimacy thereof because I know I have turned right at
that junction multiple times in the past) until I returned from
Asia on 1/2/24 and after which a bailiff had attended my
property on 31/1/24.
Thanks,
MPM
#Post#: 26336--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiff - Brent Council, 50 Performing a prohibited turn,
Glacier Way, Brent
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: June 16, 2024, 4:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Enceladus link ---
>
> This case is a gamble.
> Right now the bill is £514 to settle.
> or
> You could apply for a review via an N244 application at £119.
>
--- End Quote ---
The £119 option is for a review on the papers, which like
anything done on the papers could be a recipe for disaster.
While a hearing is more expensive at £303, going for the cheaper
option may end up being a false economy.
#Post#: 26512--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiff - Brent Council, 50 Performing a prohibited turn,
Glacier Way, Brent
DIR By: raphaeldonatello
Date: June 18, 2024, 1:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Is there anything else that can be added? I am living every day
worried about bailiffs coming to take my car or whatever else
bailiffs do.
This forum is fantastic, and I feel that I have learned a bit
about the traffic ticket system from using it, but I still don’t
feel I know how to proceed with my situation. Enceladus - what
would you do in my situation? What about you, Neil B - would you
simply accept and pay a fine which has been applied to you
unfairly (the full PCN amount + bailiff fees)? cp8759 - what
would you advise if your partner/ son/ daughter was in this
situation?
I am truly grateful for all of the help by everyone, but I am
reading conflicting information like the N244 being a “false
economy”. Can this be explained further? If I wish to go to a
hearing, then can I get my fees back?
I have explained myself as best I know how to - I do not know
how to explain why I did not receive letters that I did not
receive or know about; I’m an educated person but it feels as
though I’m supposed to make up some kind of explanation out of
magic.
I proposed that I could change the owner of my car - would this
prevent the bailiffs from being able to take it? I can’t afford
the fine, I can’t afford to pay lawyers, and I can’t afford to
lose my car.
I literally check this post before I go to sleep and the first
thing I do is check again when I wake up in the morning - I am
stressed to the maximum and I can’t reiterate it any more -
because I unknowingly turned right at a left-only turn; is that
really justification for me potentially losing my car? This is
madness to me. Thereafter, I didn’t know there was a PCN, nor
any of the other letters that are required to be sent. I don’t
know how many letters I haven’t received over the years -
because I haven’t received them.
I also asked about the fact that I declared under oath in front
of a lawyer, with the explicit explanation that doing so
incorrectly was an act of perjury which has penalties including
fines and jail, doesn’t this hold any weight if I then proceed
to challenge further? In my view it obviously should - because I
did so truthfully and understanding the significance of that
declaration. Thank you all again for your input so far. I’d
really appreciate any kind of help with how to go forward - the
level of stress I am under with this is difficult to portray but
it is a serious weight on me.
Thanks,
MPM
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