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#Post#: 25720--------------------------------------------------
P4Parking / TNC PPC - No Permit - Leith, Edinburgh
DIR By: range23
Date: June 12, 2024, 1:37 pm
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The driver was visiting a friend in Leith and parked in the car
park for the building. The driver says they never seen any signs
when they parked up as all signs are attached to a fence below
eye level and are mostly behind other parked cars. There is a
sign on entry to the car park but again is below eye level.
The driver had previously parked there before the Private
Parking company was installed and assumed they were still safe
to do so as a visitor to the building. The sign states that
visitors should obtain a permit from residents, estate or
concierge office. Resident was never given visitor permits &
there is no estate or concierge office that they know of.
Driver can provide proof of residence of friend that they
visited & all parties are residents of Scotland.
I the registered keeper has received a 3 letters so far from TNC
Parking Services on behalf of P4Parking. The latest letter is
titled "Notice of intention to instruct solicitors. To commence
legal action at your local county court. Parking charges are
legally enforceable."
I haven't communicated with TNC/P4P regarding these notices.
The body of the letter is as follows:
--- Quote ---
>
> Please be advised that unless settlement of the above Parking
Charge Notice is received by this office within 7 days of the
post mark hereon we intend to advise our above client to
instigate immediate legal proceedings against you.
> Should this be necessary and subject to judgment and the rules
of the Court our client may further be entitled to additional
costs, fees and interest.
> Please be aware that, if the Court decides you owe the money,
a County Court Judgment (CCJ will be issued which might
adversely affect your credit rating.
> Private Parking Charges are legally enforceable in the UK.
> England & Wales - On 4th November 2015 the Supreme Court of
the United Kingdom handed down judgment in the favour of a
parking operator who took a motorist to Court for non payment of
a parking charge. Full details can be found online at -
HTML https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2015-0116.html
> Scotland - On 13th January 2017 the Dundee Sherriff Court
handed down judgment in favour of a parking operator who took a
motorist to Court for non payment of a parking charge. Full
details can be found at -
HTML https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-
> judgments/judgment?id=a48631a7-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7
>
--- End Quote ---
I think the window for popla / appeal will have closed. Should I
continue to not respond to them?
In the slim chance it does go to court, I assume I can argue the
driver was a visitor and there were no means of obtaining a
visitor permit at the site?
Photo of the carpark signage:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/mZp5NRO.jpeg
Glad I found this forum since Pepipoo is down.
Thanks!
#Post#: 25804--------------------------------------------------
Re: P4Parking / TNC PPC - No Permit - Leith, Edinburgh
DIR By: Dave65
Date: June 13, 2024, 5:10 am
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Normally on these PPN`s in Scotland there is no keeper liability
under PoFA and as long as they don`t know who was driving.
There is a usual reply to these PPN`s.
Regulars will know better.
#Post#: 25811--------------------------------------------------
Re: P4Parking / TNC PPC - No Permit - Leith, Edinburgh
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: June 13, 2024, 5:27 am
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--- Quote from: range23 link ---
>
> all parties are residents of Scotland.
>
--- End Quote ---
So this took place in Scotland and the keeper is in Scotland? If
so, unless anything has changed recently*, given this is a
single ticket, you can continue to ignore.
*adding this caveat as I don't really keep an eye on any changes
north of the border!
--- Quote from: range23 link ---
>
> On 13th January 2017 the Dundee Sherriff Court handed down
judgment in favour of a parking operator who took a motorist to
Court for non payment of a parking charge.
--- End Quote ---
They're misrepresenting that case somewhat - the defendant in
that case wasn't being pursued for non-payment of a parking
charge, but rather, over 200, and she was known to be the
driver. The total claim was over £24,000.
--- Quote from: range23 link ---
>
> I assume I can argue the driver was a visitor and there were
no means of obtaining a visitor permit at the site?
--- End Quote ---
The specifics of the case are largely irrelevant, but as an
aside, this on its own is not a particularly compelling
argument. If a driver enters private land and finds he is unable
to comply with the terms of parking on offer he is expected to
leave.
#Post#: 25833--------------------------------------------------
Re: P4Parking / TNC PPC - No Permit - Leith, Edinburgh
DIR By: The Rookie
Date: June 13, 2024, 7:06 am
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--- Quote from: DWMB2 link ---
>
> [quote author=range23 link=topic=2190.msg25720#msg25720
date=1718217458]
> On 13th January 2017 the Dundee Sherriff Court handed down
judgment in favour of a parking operator who took a motorist to
Court for non payment of a parking charge.
--- End Quote ---
They're misrepresenting that case somewhat - the defendant in
that case wasn't being pursued for non-payment of a parking
charge, but rather, over 200, and she was known to be the
driver. The total claim was over £24,000.
[/quote]Not to mention she was well aware of the restrictions
and took the attitude of 'you can't stop me' and that she put
that 'attitude' on record to the parking company.
All the case proved was that private parking charges aren't
blanket unenforceable, it in no way made any case for a
particular charge to be enforceable (even against the driver).
#Post#: 25844--------------------------------------------------
Re: P4Parking / TNC PPC - No Permit - Leith, Edinburgh
DIR By: range23
Date: June 13, 2024, 9:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your responses.
--- Quote from: DWMB2 link ---
>
> So this took place in Scotland and the keeper is in Scotland?
If so, unless anything has changed recently*, given this is a
single ticket, you can continue to ignore.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes and yes.
I had a quick google and seems like it's not been enacted into
law yet and is still listed as "prospective"
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2019/17/part/8
--- Quote from: The Rookie link ---
>
> [quote author=DWMB2 link=topic=2190.msg25811#msg25811
date=1718274466]
> [quote author=range23 link=topic=2190.msg25720#msg25720
date=1718217458]
> On 13th January 2017 the Dundee Sherriff Court handed down
judgment in favour of a parking operator who took a motorist to
Court for non payment of a parking charge.
--- End Quote ---
They're misrepresenting that case somewhat - the defendant in
that case wasn't being pursued for non-payment of a parking
charge, but rather, over 200, and she was known to be the
driver. The total claim was over £24,000.
[/quote]
Not to mention she was well aware of the restrictions and took
the attitude of 'you can't stop me' and that she put that
'attitude' on record to the parking company.
All the case proved was that private parking charges aren't
blanket unenforceable, it in no way made any case for a
particular charge to be enforceable (even against the driver).
[/quote]
Yeah seems like quoting these cases are scare tactics rather
than definitive proof that they'll win should it go to court
#Post#: 36771--------------------------------------------------
Re: P4Parking / TNC PPC - No Permit - Leith, Edinburgh
DIR By: range23
Date: September 13, 2024, 11:52 am
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Hey All,
Thanks for your responses so far. Just thought I'd provide an
update.
So I've continued to get reminder letters through the post and
haven't responded to any of the letters at all.
Today I've received a Letter Before Claim from P4P. Should I
continue to ignore or could you please advise on next steps?
Letter included below:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/vO07PUk.jpeg
#Post#: 36774--------------------------------------------------
Re: P4Parking / TNC PPC - No Permit - Leith, Edinburgh
DIR By: b789
Date: September 13, 2024, 12:06 pm
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Does that letter represent the total of what they sent you? Does
that letter fully comply with the requirements set out in
paragraph 3 of the Pre Action Protocol:
HTML https://www.justice.gov.uk/documents/debt-pap.pdf
#Post#: 36778--------------------------------------------------
Re: P4Parking / TNC PPC - No Permit - Leith, Edinburgh
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: September 13, 2024, 12:34 pm
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Does that pre-action protocol apply to Scottish claims?
#Post#: 36780--------------------------------------------------
Re: P4Parking / TNC PPC - No Permit - Leith, Edinburgh
DIR By: b789
Date: September 13, 2024, 12:43 pm
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Well spotted. My bad. I hadn't noticed it was for a PCN issued
in Scotland.
In Scotland, there are different pre-action protocols and legal
procedures under Scottish law, such as the Debt Arrangement
Scheme (DAS) and specific pre-action requirements for certain
types of consumer debt.
This is what I could find about the "simple procedure" in
Scotland:
--- Quote ---
> The Simple Procedure is used for claims in Scotland where the
value of the debt is less than £5,000. It replaces the old small
claims procedure. Creditors are expected to send a "letter
before action," which is somewhat similar to the Letter of Claim
in the Pre-Action Protocol in England and Wales. However, it’s a
simpler and less prescriptive process in Scotland.
>
> There is no actual Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims in
Scotland as there is under the Civil Procedure Rules (CPR) in
England and Wales. Instead of the PAP, creditors in Scotland
must still follow certain principles, including fairness,
reasonableness, and providing debtors with an opportunity to
settle the debt without court action, but the specific
requirements are less formalised.
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 36809--------------------------------------------------
Re: P4Parking / TNC PPC - No Permit - Leith, Edinburgh
DIR By: range23
Date: September 14, 2024, 3:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> Does that letter represent the total of what they sent you?
Does that letter fully comply with the requirements set out in
paragraph 3 of the Pre Action Protocol:
>
>
HTML https://www.justice.gov.uk/documents/debt-pap.pdf
>
--- End Quote ---
Yeah this is all that was sent this time but they have sent the
usual threatening reminder letters between this and my original
post.
Does the fact that I'm in Scotland make it easier for them to
take me to court over this since the rules around sending a
letter before claim seem to be a bit more relaxed?
What do you reckon I should do next? Continue to ignore given
they don't know who the driver was and only know the registered
keeper or is there a response I should send at this stage?
I've included the letter they sent before this one below where
they state that the fact the DVLA provided my details as the
registered keeper will be used as evidence.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/I8X1uaW.jpeg
Thanks
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