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#Post#: 28149--------------------------------------------------
Re: Portsmouth, CAZ entry, PCN for non-payment in time
DIR By: ericaswas
Date: July 1, 2024, 6:46 am
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Thanks so much! - I have now submitted representation.
#Post#: 31600--------------------------------------------------
Re: Portsmouth, CAZ entry, PCN for non-payment in time
DIR By: ericaswas
Date: July 30, 2024, 3:32 am
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A lady at the Portsmouth parking office just rang and advised
that contrary to our representation, they WERE allowed to charge
in the way they did - she quoted part 2 sec 4.4 and said
something about 'in addition to, OR'. Obviously I wasn't able to
follow or confirm whether she had a point or not.
But she said that they would allow me to just pay the £50 CAZ
charge. This is obviously attractive since it will cost more
than that to be represented at tribunal. I did say that there
was a point about the signage that we would bring up at tribunal
- she said that if that had been on the representation, they
would have addressed it (but of course, they would probably have
defended it).
I asked for 24 hours to consider the offer and she will ring
tomorrow. It's a case of pursuing the principle vs financial
outlay. Thoughts on her argument?
#Post#: 31607--------------------------------------------------
Re: Portsmouth, CAZ entry, PCN for non-payment in time
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: July 30, 2024, 5:34 am
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The lady at Portsmouth council is half-right. The council can
collect the penalty charge in addition to the CAZ charge, but
the regulations do not allow the CAZ charge to be demanded on
the PCN. The two are completely separate, and the council must
use normal debt collection processes to collect any unpaid CAZ
charge.
See here the regulation she quotes: -
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/1783/part/2/made
but then look at Regulation 7 in Part 3 that relates to PCNs and
their content: -
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/1783/part/3/made
see anything in there on a PCN containing a request for the CAZ
charge ?
#Post#: 31623--------------------------------------------------
Re: Portsmouth, CAZ entry, PCN for non-payment in time
DIR By: slapdash
Date: July 30, 2024, 8:28 am
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You can find the Moran decision here
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/dart-charge-pcn-flaws/msg27921/#msg27921
It is, so far, untested against a CAZ case. Bristol have shown
substantial reluctance in letting a case get to tribunal where
this argument has been raised.
Will it work for CAZ? It ought to, it's the same legislation.
But there are other considerations.
- In Moran an underlying charge had been paid. An adjudicator
may consider that in some way.
- The authority have, in effect, agreed to drop the penalty in
exchange for the CAZ fee. Might this hold some sway with an
adjudicator.
- If you win, are the authority still entitled to attempt to
enforce the CAZ payment being due (I guess they'd have to ask
you nicely and eventually sue you if they felt they really
wanted to collect). I don't see any regulation which would
discharge the letter ability. Though it might.
An adjudicator is not bound by another adjudicators decisions.
Even one made by the Chief Adjudicator.
It is a strange state of affairs that the charging order for a
CAZ can legitimately demand the toll, however the underlying
regulations give no means of enforcement.
Not all charging schemes do allow the fee and a penalty
(Birmingham don't, TFL don't for example). I think it may be the
case that these were better advised.
(This also leads to another oddity. If the scheme does not apply
the charge in addition and exceeds the penalty charge then why
pay at all. Just settle discounted penalties).
I would like to see a CAZ case on this point, but you do need to
consider what may be gained either way.
#Post#: 31643--------------------------------------------------
Re: Portsmouth, CAZ entry, PCN for non-payment in time
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: July 30, 2024, 10:25 am
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(4) A charging scheme is to specify whether a penalty charge
referred to in paragraph (1) or (2) is payable in addition to
the road user charge or instead of such charge.
And:
HTML https://cleanerairportsmouth.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/PORTSMOUTH-CLEAN-AIR-ZONE-ORDER-SEALED-redacted.pdf
Nothing incompatible, IMO the council do not have the authority
to impose the 'charge' as part of their recovery of the 'penalty
charge'.
As observed by others, simply stating whether something is owed
does NOT imply how it may be collected.
See para.9.
By what means a 'charge' is payable is specified and constrained
by reference to 9(1) and adding it to a 'penalty charge' isn't
one of them, IMO.
#Post#: 31647--------------------------------------------------
Re: Portsmouth, CAZ entry, PCN for non-payment in time
DIR By: slapdash
Date: July 30, 2024, 11:17 am
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9(4) Seem to rule out the acquisition of the licence outside the
+/- 6 day period which appears to cause a further problem.
How can they charge for a licence they cannot sell.
That must impact on whether they can recover it in any way at
all
#Post#: 31650--------------------------------------------------
Re: Portsmouth, CAZ entry, PCN for non-payment in time
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: July 30, 2024, 12:18 pm
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Exactly. IMO, 9 precludes the council's current procedure - but
they don't think so because they state it bluntly on their
website.
Everything within the PCN is....a penalty, except it isn't.
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