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#Post#: 25711--------------------------------------------------
Portsmouth, CAZ entry, PCN for non-payment in time
DIR By: ericaswas
Date: June 12, 2024, 12:30 pm
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23 May - we were travelling in our motorhome (above 3.5T, so
classified as private goods vehicle and therefore subject to CAZ
charge) to sail from Portsmouth Brittany Ferries terminal. As
usual, we filled up with petrol just round the corner from the
port. This involves driving on Mile End Road, a dual
carriageway, past the terminal road exit and turning round at
the nearest roundabout to access the filling station on the
other carriageway. I was aware that there was now a CAZ in place
and did see advance warning signs. However, I thought that there
would be an alternative route at the boundary to avoid going
into it. Unfortunately there wasn't and we ended up briefly
entering and exiting the CAZ. We weren't aware of this until
returning home 2 weeks later and now have a PCN for £50 entry
plus £60 fine if paid within 28 days, otherwise £120.
I will post the PCN and evidence of route and signage forthwith,
but wanted to get this rolling asap. I would appreciate advice
on whether the signage is sub-standard (the last sign is not far
behind a buslane camera sign) and whether there should be a last
minute get-out exit to avoid entering the CAZ (the last sign is
at the exit of a roundabout, shows the distance to the boundary,
but there is no way of avoiding CAZ entry once you commit to the
exit).
Thanks in advance!
#Post#: 25715--------------------------------------------------
Re: Portsmouth, CAZ entry, PCN for non-payment in time
DIR By: ericaswas
Date: June 12, 2024, 1:06 pm
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Attached are pics of signs on the approach to the CAZ (may have
to upload on different posts)
1. First advice on motorway
2. But this implies you will not enter the CAZ if you exit the
motorway which we did.
3. We were going straight on at the roundabout on the dual
carriageway which has no info.
4. Once on the roundabout there is an advance sign for CAZ on
our exit, but no indication of distance.
5. Still on roundabout, same.
6. Point of no return - roundabout exit, CAZ sign saying 1/4
mile ahead, but displayed shortly after the buslane sign and if
you are in the LH lane, doesn't come into view until you are
committed to the exit.
7. Now you're on a dual carriageway with no possible exit or
U-turn point before hitting the roundabout where we wanted to
turn back to the filling station. There is a CAZ boundary sign
here with camera sign.
8. Another CAZ boundary sign ahead of the roundabout where the
camera is on the traffic lights allowing access onto the
roundabout.
Actually cannot upload the pics yet, because it says the upload
folder is full...
#Post#: 25717--------------------------------------------------
Re: Portsmouth, CAZ entry, PCN for non-payment in time
DIR By: ericaswas
Date: June 12, 2024, 1:15 pm
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Try uploading to an image sharing site - can someone confirm
they can see these?
HTML https://www.flickr.com/photos/183139830@N08/53787303654/in/dateposted-public/
HTML https://www.flickr.com/photos/183139830@N08/53786044657/in/dateposted-public/
HTML https://www.flickr.com/photos/183139830@N08/53786986096/in/dateposted-public/
HTML https://www.flickr.com/photos/183139830@N08/53787202718/in/dateposted-public/
HTML https://www.flickr.com/photos/183139830@N08/53787403905/in/dateposted-public/
HTML https://www.flickr.com/photos/183139830@N08/53786986066/in/dateposted-public/
HTML https://www.flickr.com/photos/183139830@N08/53786044632/in/dateposted-public/
HTML https://www.flickr.com/photos/183139830@N08/53786986071/in/dateposted-public/
#Post#: 25719--------------------------------------------------
Re: Portsmouth, CAZ entry, PCN for non-payment in time
DIR By: ericaswas
Date: June 12, 2024, 1:37 pm
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PCN front page
HTML https://www.flickr.com/photos/183139830@N08/53787351939/in/dateposted-public/
#Post#: 25721--------------------------------------------------
Re: Portsmouth, CAZ entry, PCN for non-payment in time
DIR By: ericaswas
Date: June 12, 2024, 1:42 pm
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Route
HTML https://www.flickr.com/photos/183139830@N08/53787261588/in/dateposted-public/
I suppose this does show there is an exit from the dual
carriageway on Havisham street, but it isn't obvious and
probably wouldn't be for your average HGV.
#Post#: 26251--------------------------------------------------
Re: Portsmouth, CAZ entry, PCN for non-payment in time
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: June 16, 2024, 8:33 am
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[member=1979]ericaswas[/member] I can see your pictures but for
future reference, please read this guidance
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/<br
/>which tells you many important things including on how to post
images.
so here's the first page of the PCN:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/pySBqNe.png
The PCN is invalid for the reasons explained in Luke Moran v
Secretary of State for Transport (IA01249-1803, 13 June 2018)
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/196wgUERzYDuZjwM9IEFYQwN0jD_jlcDD/view,<br
/>but seeing the other pages would help us confirm if there are
any additional grounds.
I would not mention the question of signage to the council, it's
generally best to just put them to proof at the tribunal.
#Post#: 26375--------------------------------------------------
Re: Portsmouth, CAZ entry, PCN for non-payment in time
DIR By: ericaswas
Date: June 17, 2024, 2:00 am
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Thanks so much for looking at this ;) , I was beginning to give
up hope as I saw the raft of other issues scrolling past - there
are so many people generating cases!
The other PCN pages are here:
HTML https://www.flickr.com/photos/183139830@N08/53796864748/in/dateposted-public/
HTML https://www.flickr.com/photos/183139830@N08/53795695262/in/dateposted-public/
HTML https://www.flickr.com/photos/183139830@N08/53796864748/in/dateposted-public/
if you would be so kind as to look for other issues...
I think I have until 5th July to respond to the Council - 5/6/24
+ 2 + 28.
#Post#: 26477--------------------------------------------------
Re: Portsmouth, CAZ entry, PCN for non-payment in time
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: June 17, 2024, 6:29 pm
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I'd keep this nice and simple, as we know the council will
likely reject no matter what you say:
[indent]
Dear Portsmouth City Council,
I challenge liability on the ground that the alleged
contravention did not occur, and also that the amount demanded
on the face of the penalty charge exceeds the amount due by law.
Nothing in regulation 7 of The Road User Charging Schemes
(Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England)
Regulations 2013 permits the council to demand payment of the
CAZ charge in addition to the penalty, the only amount that may
be demanded is £120, discounted to £60 if paid during the 14 day
discount period. There is no statutory authority to demand £170
discounted to £110 if paid during the 14 day discount period.
It follows that the penalty charge must be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,
[/indent]
You don't want to say anything about signage because you cannot
do so without making some self-incriminating admission or
another, so you might as well wait and see what evidence of
signage they can come up with first.
Make the representations online and make sure to keep a
screenshot of the confirmation page.
#Post#: 27766--------------------------------------------------
Re: Portsmouth, CAZ entry, PCN for non-payment in time
DIR By: ericaswas
Date: June 27, 2024, 3:16 pm
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OK, great, I'm going to do this - as soon as I can get through
to the online link, which seems to be down at the moment.
Because I missed the notification of your reply (my bad, have
now ticked the notify box!), I seem to have missed the
unofficial deadline of 14 days when I might receive the discount
after representation rejection - it's a shame that is not
reported officially anywhere...
I anticipate the online process will give me the same statutory
grounds of appeal that the PCN states - which should I tick?
The charge did not apply to the vehicle.
The Council has made a procedural error when dealing with my
case or the PCN.
The penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the
circumstances of the case.
I'm guessing the middle one?
Thinking forward to tribunal:
is telephone rather than physical appearance likely?
On loss, will I be paying 50+120 (CAZ + non-discounted penalty)?
Can someone represent me, and for what cost?
#Post#: 27983--------------------------------------------------
Re: Portsmouth, CAZ entry, PCN for non-payment in time
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: June 30, 2024, 7:52 am
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I would tick "The penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable
in the circumstances of the case", as they're asking for more
than what the law allows, but in truth it doesn't really matter.
Tribunal hearings are done via video call (Microsoft Teams but
you can join from your web browser). If you were to lose at the
tribunal in theory the council could demand £170, but I would
say they can only recover £120 as that's the penalty amount. If
they want the £50 CAZ charge, they need to sue you in the small
claims track of the county court.
I can represent you if you'd like, I'll send you a PM about it.
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