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#Post#: 24579--------------------------------------------------
When is a U turn not a U turn - Clayhall avenue Redbridge
DIR By: Mpesm
Date: May 31, 2024, 11:37 am
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Happy Friday everyone
I hope you can help with a PCN I have received.
The contravention is 50U - performing a prohibited turn (no U
turn) in Clayhall Redbridge. There is a no U turn sign which I
was aware of. They have provided video evidence but i can’t find
the legal definition of a U turn, only it’s a 180 move to point
your car in the opposite direction.
Would it be worth me appealing?
Location
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/fFbfyjib7qoAjMPF6
Link to the video
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zoCxh3d5ENQGHRfRejxS14K-SmlOspuF/view?usp=sharing
I have uploaded the PCN
Thanks in advance.
M
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 24581--------------------------------------------------
Re: When is a U turn not a U turn - Clayhall avenue Redbridge
DIR By: 666
Date: May 31, 2024, 11:51 am
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Good question, and I'll be interested to see a definitive
answer.
FWIW I'd say it was a U-turn, and I suspect the tribunal would
agree.
BTW you also reversed into a main road, contrary the HC Rule
201, and stopped with the front of your car over the stop line
(criminal offence).
#Post#: 24582--------------------------------------------------
Re: When is a U turn not a U turn - Clayhall avenue Redbridge
DIR By: sparx
Date: May 31, 2024, 12:31 pm
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I believed a U-turn had to be a continuous movement causing the
180 degree change of direction, but this is from very old posts
on Pepipoo. Realistically OP has turned into the side road, then
reversed out onto the main road, then pulled forward. 3
distinctly different manoeuvres.
I'm also not sure OP has crossed the stop line, rather just the
camera angle.
#Post#: 24584--------------------------------------------------
Re: When is a U turn not a U turn - Clayhall avenue Redbridge
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: May 31, 2024, 12:37 pm
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If you go to London Tribunals and look at their Key Cases list,
you'll find what they consider to be U-turns. A panel of
adjudicators was set up to make a decision so future cases could
be determined consistently
HTML https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/key-cases?field_subjects_value=U-Turn&combine=
#Post#: 24585--------------------------------------------------
Re: When is a U turn not a U turn - Clayhall avenue Redbridge
DIR By: Grant Urismo
Date: May 31, 2024, 12:58 pm
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In my opinion the video shows a u-turn Claybury Broadway, not a
u-turn in Clayhall Avenue. It may also shows some other
offences, but that's irrelevant to defending against this
particular PCN.
For the benefit of Mpesm who might not know this, the Council
only get one stab at issuing a PCN, so they can't go back and
accuse you of something else if you win this because they got
the location wrong or picked the wrong offence.
#Post#: 24591--------------------------------------------------
Re: When is a U turn not a U turn - Clayhall avenue Redbridge
DIR By: roythebus
Date: May 31, 2024, 1:46 pm
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In my opinion not a U turn. It's worth going to tribunal on this
as the council haven't provided a photo of the sign that you are
alleged to have ignored. They will have to provide that in their
evidence pack, but don't tell them that.
#Post#: 24604--------------------------------------------------
Re: When is a U turn not a U turn - Clayhall avenue Redbridge
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: May 31, 2024, 3:21 pm
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The facts are that your car entered Clayhall Avenue heading in a
NE direction and left heading in a SW direction.
The driver probably entered and turned round in order to avoid
the no U-turn in Woodhall, but their reason is not the central
issue.
Your car effected this volte face by turning within some 20m of
entering.
The U-turn link provided will explain the court's view which is
now case law. I suggest you read this carefully before deciding
whether you think you have a defence against the practical
aspects of the contravention.
True, there's no U-turn sign visible in the video, but it's
there as GSV shows, unless the circular sign is some random and
unrelated sign.
IMO, your only hope - with the full penalty in play- is to try
and trip up the authority procedurally.
#Post#: 24606--------------------------------------------------
Re: When is a U turn not a U turn - Clayhall avenue Redbridge
DIR By: mickR
Date: May 31, 2024, 3:53 pm
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I'm in agreement with Roy.
the OP made a right turn fully crossing the white junction
divider line entering Into Clayhall Broadway.
he then made a left reverse turn out of Broadway (contrary to
the HC but irrelevant)
He then drives forward to the stop line.
I'm at a loss as to how you can be doing a "U" turn when you
fully enter a different side road.
does the sign say no "U" turns or no 3point turns?
#Post#: 24612--------------------------------------------------
Re: When is a U turn not a U turn - Clayhall avenue Redbridge
DIR By: Grant Urismo
Date: May 31, 2024, 4:39 pm
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--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> The facts are that your car entered Clayhall Avenue heading in
a NE direction and left heading in a SW direction.
>
--- End Quote ---
But there has to be some point at which it is acceptable to
travel in the other direction having passed a no-U-turn sign,
it's not a lifelong ban from using the other carriageway or from
changing direction elsewhere. I seem to recall 'leaving the road
the sign applies to' to be the extent of the restriction, and
the the video proves the OP did leave the road where the offence
is alledged to have occurred. If I was the OP, I'd take this to
the adjudicator.
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> IMO, your only hope - with the full penalty in play- is to try
and trip up the authority procedurally.
>
--- End Quote ---
I think they did. The u-turn was in Claybury Broadway, not
Clayhall Avenue.
#Post#: 24626--------------------------------------------------
Re: When is a U turn not a U turn - Clayhall avenue Redbridge
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: May 31, 2024, 6:52 pm
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Sorry, IMO that is a U turn. If you had gone further down the
road - and not reversed back onto the main road - you may get
away with it. The purposive action is a U turn. There is
authority on this.
HTML https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/SKMBT_C454e14031216470.pdf
HTML https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Azadegan%20and%20Orphanides%20%28Panel%20Hearing%29.doc
You could make the point that the sign is not shown in the video
and hope they mess up.
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