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#Post#: 26083--------------------------------------------------
Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone,
unclear signage?
DIR By: rizlagunner
Date: June 14, 2024, 3:18 pm
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@cp8759 It appears to be head on approach but it isn't actually,
if you look at the map of the intersection you can see that it
is actually a turn into the road, and typically on a roundabout
attention is not up ahead towards the exit but towards the right
before entering.
#Post#: 26117--------------------------------------------------
Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone,
unclear signage?
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: June 15, 2024, 7:09 am
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This enforcement is rather disproportionate. NOR has one issue
re not mentioning power of adjudicator to extend time.
HTML https://bit.ly/2ALghSS
adjudications/key cases: 332 ff.
#Post#: 26318--------------------------------------------------
Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone,
unclear signage?
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: June 16, 2024, 3:38 pm
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[member=1775]rizlagunner[/member] either you pay the discounted
penalty of £65, or you appeal to the tribunal against the full
amount. There is no option to appeal to the tribunal at the £65
rate, the council offers the 50% discount as an incentive
because that saves them the hassle of having to fight a tribunal
appeal.
So it's not as if you can appeal within 14 days and still pay
£65 if you lose.
I don't think an argument against the adequacy of the signage
will succeed in this instance and I wouldn't want you to throw
good money after bad, but if you want to appeal regardless of
the risks we will do our best to help you anyway. Please let us
know how you'd like to proceed.
#Post#: 26328--------------------------------------------------
Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone,
unclear signage?
DIR By: rizlagunner
Date: June 16, 2024, 4:04 pm
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Thanks for the advice and I do think that they will not accept
my argument, even though I have checked posts on Nextdoor that
show there are other people fined at this spot who also feel the
sign is in the wrong place. Honestly I am happy to pay the £65,
my problem is the 4 additional tickets I received before
receiving the first notice. Out of these one of the times was my
spouse. So neither of us spotted this apparently clear signage
and were also unfortunately distracted by Google maps owing to
our new route and unfamiliarity with the area. I want the
council to cancel the subsequent PCNs but I'm not sure how to go
about doing this if they have rejected the representations. It
is honestly way too much and puts a squeeze on our monthly
finances.
#Post#: 26340--------------------------------------------------
Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone,
unclear signage?
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: June 16, 2024, 4:58 pm
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In a case where PCNs dated after the first one, and dated before
the date of receipt of the first PCN, but only received after
receipt of the first PCN, these can be argued on the basis of
not knowing an offence had been committed until the first PCN
arrive in the post.
One would normally submit a single representation with a list of
the PCNs, and a request to cancel, pointing out the first PCN
(give number) has been paid.
Of course the council may not give way, but it is well worth
trying. Many councils do give way, so don't be put off. Would
this argument win at adjudication ? It might and has done in the
past, but its not a slam-dunk argument, I'm afraid.
#Post#: 26346--------------------------------------------------
Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone,
unclear signage?
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: June 16, 2024, 5:18 pm
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Well there's a reason why we tell people to put a draft
representation on here before submitting to the council.
At this point all I can suggest is that you show us a copy of
what you've already sent and we'll have to see if there is an
arguable failure to consider.
#Post#: 26547--------------------------------------------------
Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone,
unclear signage?
DIR By: rizlagunner
Date: June 18, 2024, 6:39 am
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--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> Well there's a reason why we tell people to put a draft
representation on here before submitting to the council.
>
> At this point all I can suggest is that you show us a copy of
what you've already sent and we'll have to see if there is an
arguable failure to consider.
>
--- End Quote ---
Unfortunately I was pressed for time and wanted to get my
representation in within the 14 days. Part of the issue is
having moved houses, the notices are still going to previous
address where I was living with parents. So even with the first
notice being received later than all the subsequent
contraventions, actual receipt of the notices was even later.
The following is what I submitted for the 4 other PCNs
individually. I was not aware that the option to appeal them
jointly existed.
Dear Sir/Madam.
With reference to the subject PCN for contravention 53J, I would
like to file an appeal against the PCN for the following two
reasons:
1. Representation made against first PCN no. CR20178336 (date of
notice 15/05/2024) for unclear signage.
2. Excessive penalty on the basis that I had not yet received
the first PCN in this regard (PCN no. CR20178336 issued on
15/05/2024 and received by post on 17/05/2024).
I have made representations against PCN no. CR20178336
(contravention took place on 09/05/2024) on the basis of unclear
signage on approach to this roundabout on Lodge Road.
Additionally, the first PCN was received by post on 17th May
2024, however in the meantime I was issued PCN no. CR20214247
for contravention taking place on 13/05/2024 (received
22/05/2024).
Had I received the first PCN immediately, I would have been
forewarned of the inaccuracy of this sat nav route as well as
the location of restriction signs on this route. Unfortunately
this PCN was received too late for me by the 17th May 2024 to
correct my taken route and subsequent contravention on
13/05/2024.
Since the receipt of the first PCN, I have stopped taking this
route and no other contravention has taken place. The issuance
of multiple PCNs for the same contravention is a significant
financial burden for me. I therefore request the authority to
cancel this follow on PCN.
Regards,
#Post#: 26548--------------------------------------------------
Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone,
unclear signage?
DIR By: rizlagunner
Date: June 18, 2024, 6:41 am
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Note: I have not yet received any notices of rejection as of
today except for the first PCN. All the representations were
filed on the same day.
#Post#: 26778--------------------------------------------------
Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone,
unclear signage?
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: June 19, 2024, 1:51 pm
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--- Quote from: rizlagunner link ---
>
> Note: I have not yet received any notices of rejection as of
today except for the first PCN. All the representations were
filed on the same day.
>
--- End Quote ---
Well all the PCNs have been reset so we know all the NoRs have
been sent, whether the Royal Mail will reliably deliver them is
somewhat academic at this point.
The key question now is whether you want to carry on or not. You
can try and argument that the overall amount is excessive, but
the only favourable cases I am aware of are quite old:
Mahabub Sumon v London Borough of Waltham Forest (2140263304, 7
July 2014)
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1r_sUvfo7mcaDYkBqbYBbIu6m3PP25WqP/view
James Harris v London Borough of Haringey (2160273606, 26 July
2016)
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/19QKNdJfdK3w_DfgXZHjF6UUzt1ZPmgY4/view
Atilla Apaydin v London Borough of Hounslow (2190063191, 18
March 2019)
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ayxyVNY-YQcRhQB35sZC08-YSip8u6pE/view
Mr Styles might well not decide the same issue in the same way
if the same matter came up today (especially given the Halton
HTML https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2023/303.pdf<br
/>decision), and the other two adjudicators only sit once in a
blue moon.
You might get lucky (the council might not contest the appeal,
or it might mess up the evidence pack), but there is a large
element of ris in carrying on. Therefore whether you wish to
pursue this depends largely on your attitude to risk.
#Post#: 50744--------------------------------------------------
Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone,
unclear signage?
DIR By: ML
Date: December 22, 2024, 7:38 am
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Hi, everyone. :)
First post here, but I used to be on the previous page a long,
loooong time ago; then, I suffered a near fatal medical
catastrophic event, and it's only now I am picking up the pieces
of my old threads, albeit with reduced energy capacity. :-\
Anyway. Enough about that for now. :)
The reason I am posting on this oldish thread is I wondered
whether OP had ever posted back to say what he had done in the
end?
I am kind of assuming that he just paid up rather than taking a
chance with adjudication, but it would have been nice to know
one way or another! ;)
[center]I'll start my own thread on the topic in a minute,
anyone can guess why! ;) :D :)[/center]
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