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#Post#: 23508--------------------------------------------------
53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone,
unclear signage?
DIR By: rizlagunner
Date: May 22, 2024, 6:26 am
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So I have recently moved to a new house which has meant that my
daily school runs to pick my son up have changed, and I have
been following Google maps. I was well aware of pedestrianised
zones in my old neighbourhood (which also had very clear
signage) but following Google maps in an unfamiliar area has
landed me a PCN for 'failing to comply with a restriction on
vehicles entering a pedestrian zone' which is enforced during
school hours between 2-4pm.
Now I have no issue with owning up and paying this ticket, the
only trouble is I have taken this route around 7-8 times over
the last two weeks. Now I fear the worst i.e. 8 tickets x £65
headed my way so I have to contest. My primary issue is that the
sign is located right while exiting a roundabout. Should
restrictions on exits not be indicated before entering a
roundabout, because my focus while entering a roundabout is on
traffic from the right rather than reading time restrictions. By
the time you exit this roundabout you are literally under the
sign with no overhead visibility and it is too late at that
point already even if you turn around. You can see from the
picture another car having spotted the sign late and making a
dangerous turn in the road. Can this be a valid defence? Photo
here:
HTML https://imgur.com/gallery/1QJz5Wg
I am also very annoyed at the fact that Google maps can't
display basic stuff such as this, this restriction came into
force a year ago and the signs are still not visible on street
view. Attaching a layout of signage in the area along with the
direction of my approach.
Location of approach:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/e8rFVgmnVUKzSJMz5
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 23521--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can I contest this PCN for entering pedestrian zone for
unclear signage?
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: May 22, 2024, 7:16 am
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I've said it many times on here, that reliance on satnavs in big
cities is asking for trouble because they are never up-to-date.
Anyway, please read this: -
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and update your post accordingly.
Please tell us your approach to the mini-roundabout, (street,
direction etc).
GSV is not sufficiently up-to-date, so if you decide to take the
matter further, we'll need photos of the approach and the signs.
#Post#: 23537--------------------------------------------------
Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone,
unclear signage?
DIR By: rizlagunner
Date: May 22, 2024, 8:36 am
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Hi, thanks for the reply and apologies for missing the
guidelines. Have updated the title of my post and also attaching
my approach, there are no warning signs on approach to
roundabout. Copy of PCN attached too. There are signs when
coming from the left or right to this street but none from my
approach.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 23580--------------------------------------------------
Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone,
unclear signage?
DIR By: rizlagunner
Date: May 22, 2024, 11:36 am
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Update, I have today received two further PCNs as expected. Same
route and approach. The fact that I missed the sign every time
is a clear indication of unclear signage, you simply can't see
signs on exits before entering a roundabout and when you exit
the sign is above you. Traffic from other approaches to
roundabout have clear forewarning as indicated in third
attachment showing the signs in the area.
2, the first PCN was received on 17 May for a contravention on 9
May (even though notice date is 15 May). The second two offences
are 13 May and 14 May, and just about within 24 hours of each
other, received today (22 May). I have not gone on this route
since the first PCN received, and wouldn't have done so if
signage was clear and I had had first PCN in time. I am
certainly going to appeal this and hope someone can help out
with template and whether my reasoning makes sense. I will be
going to the area later to photograph the actual approach as
well.
For ease of access, everything is placed within this folder:
HTML https://bit.ly/3WRhUJd
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 23606--------------------------------------------------
Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone,
unclear signage?
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: May 22, 2024, 3:00 pm
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For PCNs dated after PCN 1, but before the date you received PCN
1, can be appealed on no knowledge of the contravention until
the first PCN arrived. All PCNs can be appealed on inadequate
signage. The council acknowledge that the restriction signs
cannot be seen for turns off Elmwood Road, but an approach on
Lodge Road going north is also a turn, and there have to be
doubts as to the signs visibility before it is too late.
So you have two arguments to submit on your reps to the council
as above. Don't expect them to roll-over and cancel, but do
post their response here when you get it.
#Post#: 23643--------------------------------------------------
Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone,
unclear signage?
DIR By: rizlagunner
Date: May 23, 2024, 3:26 am
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Brilliant, thanks. I will get drafting. Can I ask where exactly
did the council acknowledge visibility issues with restriction
signs off Elmwood Road?
#Post#: 24064--------------------------------------------------
Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone,
unclear signage?
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: May 27, 2024, 12:04 pm
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Video for CR20178336:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13SQksT5UFI
Video for CR20214247:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTxbrg6mJCI
Video for CR20228092:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wVOaeUL3uQ
I'm not sure what arguments can be made about the visibility of
the signage, it seems you approached them head-on and must have
just failed to notice them.
I would suggest sending a single representation via email to
pcn@croydon.gov.uk listing all right PCNs, this way for any that
they miss when issuing the rejections you have an open-and-shut
case of failure to consider, but don't miss the 28 day deadline
to make representations.
It's advisable to post a draft on here first.
#Post#: 25008--------------------------------------------------
Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone,
unclear signage?
DIR By: jmann
Date: June 5, 2024, 8:05 am
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Hi,
I have a fine for exactly the same route and flashed at the same
spot.
I wonder how did the OPs appeal go?
Will be nice to hear from you.
Thanks
#Post#: 25413--------------------------------------------------
Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone,
unclear signage?
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: June 9, 2024, 1:06 pm
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[member=1775]rizlagunner[/member] well I can see the PCNs are
back at £65, which indicates that a notice of rejection must
have been issued with an extended offer of the discount.
Please show us the notices of rejection, you never know they
might have messed up the paperwork.
#Post#: 26082--------------------------------------------------
Re: 53J - Croydon council - PCN for entering pedestrian zone,
unclear signage?
DIR By: rizlagunner
Date: June 14, 2024, 3:15 pm
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Hi, yes I have received the first notice of rejection but not
the rest. In my representations for the other PCNs, I requested
the council to refer to representation made in the first case
for unclear signage as well as the fact that I did not receive
the first PCN in time to rectify my actions. This led to a total
of 5 PCNs which is quite frankly ridiculous. I might as well
call them up to put me on a debt management plan because I
simply can't afford it. I would like to take this to
adjudication because I do believe the sign should precede the
roundabout (as it does on the other turns), but I am also afraid
of losing the 14 day discount which will make it a £130 x 5 =
£650 penalty. All for trying to pick my own son from school. I
hope others can take a look at this letter and see if there's
anything to pick apart.
Edit: attachments not working so copy of letter as t this link:
HTML https://imgur.com/gallery/5o5hHGs
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