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#Post#: 32127--------------------------------------------------
Re: Clean Air Zone PCN's, Code 17J, A4 Bath Road, Bristol City
Council
DIR By: slapdash
Date: August 3, 2024, 12:18 pm
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HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/portsmouth-caz-entry-pcn-for-non-payment-in-time/
May be worth reviewing.
You can easily post their rejection in Google drive or similar.
If the discount is not reoffered then it is another brainer to
take them to tribunal.
Otherwise it's decision time on pay lower or risk full.
If you do want tribunal then craft some representations based
upon how the charging order is constructed and how the
regulations are constructed and that the addition of the charge
means penalty exceeds. They have yet to let a case get to
tribunal the issue that is known about.
Detail the Moran case too. You are trying to lead the
adjudicator step by step.
Put your reps up as a draft for comment.
@cp8759 may be interested in getting this issue before
tribunal.
#Post#: 32137--------------------------------------------------
Re: Clean Air Zone PCN's, Code 17J, A4 Bath Road, Bristol City
Council
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: August 3, 2024, 1:18 pm
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Bristol City Council know full well that their PCNs are
unlawful, but also know that most people cough-up if the
discount is re-offered. They have not let any case get to
adjudication yet, as far as is known. What they do normally is
just let the matter rest until it times out and the reps are
accepted by default. Yes, the lose the penalty money but can put
up with that when over 95% of people just pay.
#Post#: 32153--------------------------------------------------
Re: Clean Air Zone PCN's, Code 17J, A4 Bath Road, Bristol City
Council
DIR By: foybles
Date: August 4, 2024, 2:16 am
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Thank you all for the advice so far. Here's a link to imgur
where you should be able to see one of two rejection letters
received, the 1st for entering Bristol the 2nd for leaving.
You'll see that they haven't bothered to address my challenge at
all.
Rejection Letter:
HTML https://imgur.com/a/k6qyOSX
My Challenge:
"Each PCN issued to us includes a £60 penalty charge plus the
additional £9 daily CAZ charge. According to The Road User
Charging Scheme (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement)
(England) Regulations 2013, the road user charge should not be
combined with the penalty charge. This discrepancy suggests that
the PCNs may be invalid, as it is not lawful to impose both the
penalty and the daily charge in this manner."
#Post#: 32156--------------------------------------------------
Re: Clean Air Zone PCN's, Code 17J, A4 Bath Road, Bristol City
Council
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: August 4, 2024, 2:35 am
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That's only part of the letter, we need to see it all to know
what options you have and their timings.
Options, dates and time periods.
#Post#: 32159--------------------------------------------------
Re: Clean Air Zone PCN's, Code 17J, A4 Bath Road, Bristol City
Council
DIR By: foybles
Date: August 4, 2024, 3:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Apologies, link to all sides of the 1st rejection letter below.
HTML https://imgur.com/a/k6qyOSX
I would like to fight this if possible.
The signage is poor but obviously is within the law. The fact I
live hours away in a village & was ignorant of the CAZ doesn't
hold water. But adding the 2 charges of PCN & CAZ charge
together seems to be unlawful which is why I guess they've
chosen to completely ignore that challenge.
Any further advice very welcome & appreciated.
#Post#: 32160--------------------------------------------------
Re: Clean Air Zone PCN's, Code 17J, A4 Bath Road, Bristol City
Council
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: August 4, 2024, 4:07 am
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Basically, until a case like yours gets to the Traffic Penalty
Tribunal, and the 2018 case is confirmed as the law, they and
the other CAZ councils will just carry on collecting the money.
They have re-offered the discount and know from experience that
most people then just cough-up. Even the DART PCNs, the original
subject of the 2018 case still have the DART charge added on to
the PCN.
It is a real scam, but there seems to be no easy process to get
these councils to obey the law.
#Post#: 32165--------------------------------------------------
Re: Clean Air Zone PCN's, Code 17J, A4 Bath Road, Bristol City
Council
DIR By: foybles
Date: August 4, 2024, 5:09 am
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OK, how does this first draft look like?
--------
The PCN BS59751797 issued to me on 20/05/24 states that the
amount due is £69, which will increase after 14 days. As I
understand the letter, this PCN is therefore a combination of a
£60 penalty charge plus an additional £9 daily CAZ charge.
The letter goes on to further state that Bristol council
charging authority believes that a penalty charge of £120.00 is
pavable (reduced to £60.00 if paid within 14 days after the
'Date of Service) plus the £9 CAZ daily charge for the
contravention.
According to The Road User Charging Scheme (Penalty Charges,
Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2013, the
CAZ road user charge should not be combined with the penalty
charge. This discrepancy suggests procedural impropriety on the
part of the Bristol charging authority and that the PCN may be
invalid as it is not lawful to impose both the penalty and the
daily charge in this manner.
-------
Any further advice on additions or changes warmly welcomed.
K
#Post#: 32176--------------------------------------------------
Re: Clean Air Zone PCN's, Code 17J, A4 Bath Road, Bristol City
Council
DIR By: slapdash
Date: August 4, 2024, 6:37 am
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It is arguably not combined because it is itemised separately.
Part of the charging order for Bristol (easily downloadable)
states (I think it's 19 but can recall off the top of my head)
that a licence may only be purchased on day of travel +/- 6
days.
That gives them no ability to demand it now.
(It does not sit well with the the other regulation to allow
penalty charge and Caz on top).
Incandescent and/or HCAnderson have posted the relevant part of
the overarching regulations which determine the argued contents
of a PCN. You should be specific and include the specific
regulations wording.
One other thing that might help bolster your case is to go
through the motions of paying and see if there is any way that
it will allow you (keep screenshots) to pay just the £60
discounted penalty. (I can see an argument attempted that they
are merely demanding £60 and asking you nicely to pay the £9,
screenshots could put paid to that).
Do remember that the discounted penalty will need to be
available should you lose.
There may be other CAZ appeals on here you can search for to
explore the exact parts of regulations.
So far, Bristol have quietly let these fall away rather than
continue, but there is no guarantee.
I couldn't read the NoR properly (my problem) but it doesn't
seem to cover the additional Caz charge being added.
In my view that is a "failure to consider" in addition to
"penalty exceeds".
#Post#: 32179--------------------------------------------------
Re: Clean Air Zone PCN's, Code 17J, A4 Bath Road, Bristol City
Council
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: August 4, 2024, 7:21 am
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Dear Sirs
Re postal PCN BS59751797 dated <date> served to me on 20/05/24
I deny liability for the above PCN penalty on the grounds of
procedural impropriety by the council
The PCN states that the amount due is £69, which will increase
after 14 days. As I understand the letter, this PCN is therefore
a combination of a £60 penalty charge plus an additional £9
daily CAZ charge.
The letter goes on to further state that Bristol council
charging authority believes that a penalty charge of £120.00 is
payable (reduced to £60.00 if paid within 14 days after the
'Date of Service) plus the £9 CAZ daily charge for the
contravention.
The relevant regulations governing Penalty Charge Notices within
a road user charging scheme are The Road User Charging Scheme
(Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England)
Regulations 2013. In the explanatory text, the regulations
state: -
"These Regulations make provision for the civil enforcement of a
penalty charge imposed in respect of a motor vehicle by a road
user charging scheme made under Part 3 of the Transport Act 2000
(c.38)."
That is the sole purpose of the regulations, and it is clear
from reading them, that inclusion of the CAZ charge within a PCN
issued under these regulations is unlawful. I refer you to
Regulation 7 which defines the content of a road user charge
PCN. The CAZ charge, if unpaid is a totally separate debt to the
penalty demanded in the PCN, therefore its inclusion in your PCN
is a prcedural impropriety.
I therefore demand that the PCN above is cancelled forthwith,
and that Bristol City Council cease enforce the CAZ until their
PCNs are altered so that the CAZ charge is omitted, and only the
penalty charge is demanded.
YOurs faithfully
#Post#: 32180--------------------------------------------------
Re: Clean Air Zone PCN's, Code 17J, A4 Bath Road, Bristol City
Council
DIR By: foybles
Date: August 4, 2024, 7:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Wow that's amazing. It's kind of what I've written out but a lot
more articulate with a little more info.
Thank you so much. I have taken screenshots of the online
payment portal only offering the combined PCN & CAZ amount of
£69 & will start the Traffic Penalty Tribunal process now.
I think once I'm at the end of this process a donation to keep
this website going will be in order. I'll keep you all updated.
Again, thanks so much.
K
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