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#Post#: 23211--------------------------------------------------
Disabled Bay - Notice to Owner
DIR By: LondonTraveller84
Date: May 20, 2024, 11:09 am
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Hi All,
Need some advice in appealing to the independent adjudicator, as
the council rejected my initial appeal, the initial discussions
in the initial appeal took place on the POPEI forums (which are
down now)..
The PCN was for “Parking in a space or zone without a valid
physical permit where required (dedicated disabled bay)” -
Contravention code 165. I appealed on the grounds that I was
loading the car and that there was no where else at all to park,
had I parked in the road I would have blocked traffic, so this
was the most reasonable approach, which of course was still
rejected. I was also advised to look at the TMO for any
conditions, which I requested.
TMO (attached) - Only point I can see that could work is 11.1.h
- Page 7
'in any other case the vehicle is waiting for the purpose of
delivering or collecting goods or loading or unloading the
vehicle at premises adjacent to the parking place in which the
vehicle is waiting and the vehicle does not wait for such
purpose for more than twenty minutes or for such longer period
as a parking attendant may approve.'
A few points on the Notice to Owner
1. I have received a notice to owner, do I just respond to this
or do I need to get a Notice of rejection?
2. It seems that this will go back to the council for them to
see if they will accept this - which doesn’t make sense as
they’ve already rejected my first appeal directly, so why would
they reconsider the same reasons again?
3. The notice to owner is to the car owner (my dad), and it says
do not pass this notice to the drive? however as I am appealing,
will this impact the independent adjudication process that I was
going to attend as this is in my dads name.
Finally to add to this my procrastination has meant I only have
28 day to respond, with notice on the 24th april, leaving only 1
day I believe :O, appreciate any advice or suggestions in
writing the appeal and if the above would work?
Attached is the TMO
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 23214--------------------------------------------------
Re: Disabled Bay - Notice to Owner
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: May 20, 2024, 11:28 am
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What is the status/history of the PCN on the Council website?
Please post up as a matter of urgency all sides of the NtO -
redact only name and address and leave everything else in.
Then in the absence of Pepipoo please have a read of
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and post up all sides of all paperwork to and from the Council
and a GSV link to the location.
I know it's a faff, but without the paperwork the experts here
would be working blind :(
#Post#: 23217--------------------------------------------------
Re: Disabled Bay - Notice to Owner
DIR By: LondonTraveller84
Date: May 20, 2024, 11:59 am
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Please see attached the PCN, NTO and the councils response, I am
unable to find my initial appeal :( as it was on the other
forums.
HTML https://tinypic.host/image/IMG-8538.DojGvX
HTML https://tinypic.host/image/IMG-8539.DojVqu
HTML https://tinypic.host/image/IMG-8937.Doj3I9
HTML https://tinypic.host/image/IMG-8938.Doja0e
HTML https://tinypic.host/image/IMG-2587.DojhGH
HTML https://tinypic.host/image/IMG-2588.DojioR
HTML https://tinypic.host/image/IMG-2602.DojvLc
HTML https://tinypic.host/image/IMG-2603.DojRBZ
GSV:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/ob4jkuUfPRFN81kd6
I have just checked the councils website, it lets me view and
pay, but no status. I went to challange and then appeal, which
just stalls and fails, however there is an option to do a formal
appeal with a webcode, which I think is what the next step is
with the NTO?.
Await to hear back so I can try get a formal response submitted
today to avoid missing any deadlines.
Thanks Again!
#Post#: 23218--------------------------------------------------
Re: Disabled Bay - Notice to Owner
DIR By: LondonTraveller84
Date: May 20, 2024, 12:01 pm
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Also not sure if it helps but new TMOs seem to be a lot more
summarised an example of one recently in and around the area
which someone posted a snippet of on the other forum, prior to
me getting the offical TMO for the bay in question
1. NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that the Council of the London Borough
of Newham ("the Council') proposes to make the above Orders
under sections 6 and 124 of and Part IV of Schedule 9 to the
Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, as amended.
2. The general effect of the Disabled Resident Parking Places
Orders and the Disabled Persons Permit Parking Places Order
would be to designate disabled resident parking places for use
only by persons who are resident within the Beckton, Canning
Town, Canning Town North, East Ham, East Ham South East, Green
Street North, Market Street, Monega, Plaistow North, Plaistow
South, Ruskin, Stratford, Stratford South East and Upton Park
Controlled Parking Zones (CPZs), who meet the current criteria
for the provision of parking places for disabled persons and who
have been issued disabled resident parking permits for their
vehicles. Certain other vehicles may wait in the parking places
in certain circumstances, e.g., to load or unload goods or pick
up or set down passengers. A single parking place would be
designated at each of the locations listed below. (NOTE - at
locations where an 'overlap' is also stated, the proposed
parking place would overlap the frontage of the adjacent
property numbers, by up to 1 metre):-
#Post#: 23245--------------------------------------------------
Re: Disabled Bay - Notice to Owner
DIR By: LondonTraveller84
Date: May 20, 2024, 2:44 pm
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Also when it says within 28th day they need a response, would
that make it today my last day to reply before midnight, or
tomorrow, just conscious as last time I appealed a PCN, they
said I had gone over by a day.
#Post#: 23250--------------------------------------------------
Re: Disabled Bay - Notice to Owner
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: May 20, 2024, 3:11 pm
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HTML https://tinypic.host/image/IMG-2587.DojhGH
says 28 days beginning with date of service.
So
Date of Notice to Owner - Wednesday 24 April
Date of Service - Friday 26th = day 1 of the 28 days.
So I make the deadline to be midnight on the 28th day = Friday
23 May.
Hopefully others can confirm.
So you have a lttle time for the experts here (I am not one) to
chip in.
#Post#: 23261--------------------------------------------------
Re: Disabled Bay - Notice to Owner
DIR By: guest17
Date: May 20, 2024, 3:53 pm
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This is what I posted on a similar Newham thread (I've added a
bit more):-
The sign which says Disabled Resident Permit Holders Only is IMO
not a traffic sign which can be enforced.
The TSRGDs (
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/4/made
)
indicate:-
1. “Disabled badge holders”;
2. “Disabled badge holders only”;
3. “Disabled badge holders only at all times”;
4. “Disabled badge holder” and a permit identifier; or
5. “Disabled badge holder only” and a permit identifier
The latter two are used when there is a dedicated individual
disabled space for an individual user as indicated by the word
"holder" (singular not plural). Also that is the only
circumstance where a permit identifier can be used.
See their approval for this sort of sign here:-
HTML https://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-3311.pdf
There is no provision for the words "Resident Permit Holders" in
the TSRGDs and the Council would have to get DfT permission to
use it----they haven't:-
HTML https://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-auths/?search=newham
Ergo the signage is invalid and unenforceable IMO. They can't
use the word Resident with disabled bays neither can they use a
permit identifier for a bay which is only open to the denizens
of Newham. So a Code 16 contravention which has a suffix "5" can
only relate to dedicated disabled bays for individual users.
And that's without going into the legitimacy of general disabled
bays for residents only which, to me, is discriminatory and
against equality legislation.
Mike
#Post#: 23271--------------------------------------------------
Re: Disabled Bay - Notice to Owner
DIR By: LondonTraveller84
Date: May 20, 2024, 4:28 pm
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--- Quote from: John U.K. link ---
>
> Date of Notice to Owner - Wednesday 24 April
> Date of Service - Friday 26th = day 1 of the 28 days.
>
--- End Quote ---
Silly question, but where did you get Date of Service from, i
assume youve added a 2 days for delivery? I believe the Date of
notice would also be the date of service in which I don't have
much time, either tonight or tomorrow but to play it safe I'm
tempted to hit a reply before midnight today.
#Post#: 23272--------------------------------------------------
Re: Disabled Bay - Notice to Owner
DIR By: LondonTraveller84
Date: May 20, 2024, 4:34 pm
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Hi Mike,
Thanks for you reply, I've read it a number of times and looked
at the links, I think I get what your trying to say, although
may be somewhat above my head, so in simple terms are we saying
the signage is incorrect based on the wording used? I guess if I
was to put that as part of my appeal to the nTO, would I just
copy paste what you've said as I have a feeling if tried to use
it in my own way, It'll just fall apart and make no sense.
#Post#: 23279--------------------------------------------------
Re: Disabled Bay - Notice to Owner
DIR By: LondonTraveller84
Date: May 20, 2024, 4:50 pm
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My attempt at the appeal as it stands is, first time I'm
appealing past the initial informal council appeal, so not sure
if it's worded correctly.
I am appealing the following PCN on the following grounds and
request the PCN is cancelled.
Ground 1. I had parked in the said disabled bay to load my
vehicle, which is allowed as per the TMO that came into force on
28th November 2015 for this bay which states on point 11.1.h -
Page 7
11. (1) Notwithstanding the foregoing provisions of this Order,
any vehicle may wait during the permitted hours in any part of a
parking place if the use of that part has not been suspended and
if
- (h) in any other case the vehicle is waiting for the purpose
of delivering or collecting goods or loading or unloading the
vehicle at premises adjacent to the parking place in which the
vehicle is waiting and the vehicle does not wait for such
purpose for more than twenty minutes or for such longer period
as a parking attendant may approve.'
As it can be noted this clearly states parking in a disabled bay
is allowed if one is loading/unloading at a premise adjacent,
which was clearly the case here, as well as the fact I was
parked in the bay for much less then 20 minutes, as the CEO had
he observed would have noticed and made note of. After placing
the PCN I had informed the warden I was loading yet this was not
taken into consideration.
Ground 2. In addition to the above, there was no parking
available in the resident or pay and display bays on the entore
street or neighbouring street during that period, other than
disabled bays in addition to the one I used that were empty. Had
I parked on the street to load, it would have caused great
inconveience to others and caused a backlog of traffic, hence
the use of the disabled bay adjacent to my property was the most
viable and reasonable approach and option to take and to be
penalised is unfair.
Ground 3. Could add the bit that Mike mentioned and try my luck?
Ground 4. I had asked the neighbour, so can get written letter,
although the bay isn;t specificially for them, rather any
disabled resident permit holder
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