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#Post#: 23043--------------------------------------------------
Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
DIR By: Fr3ddi3
Date: May 19, 2024, 6:42 am
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--- Quote from: ManxTom link ---
>
> [quote author=Fr3ddi3 link=topic=1942.msg23034#msg23034
date=1716114256]
> [quote author=NewJudge link=topic=1942.msg23030#msg23030
date=1716112446]
> [quote]We have 2 legitimately issued NIP is 49 seconds that
both need to be accepted and dealt with properly?
--- End Quote ---
It isn't a question of "accepting" anything as there is nothing
to accept. Both of the accompanying "Requests for Driver's
Details" must be responded to, naming the driver. The driver
could ask the police to consider the two as a single offence
but, if they really did turn round, I doubt very much they will
do that.
A course should be offered for the 37mph offence and a fixed
penalty (£100 and 3 points) for the other.
[/quote]
I have completed both NIP and posted them. I have also requested
that they be considered as a single offence.
[/quote]
Are you able to ask for the two allegations to be treated as one
if you weren't the driver and weren't there? Isn't that down to
the driver to do?
As a no doubt irrelevant aside the "Explanation of photographic
evidence" in the two photos is confusing. The second line of
the explanations refers to "N/R - New recording followed by the
film frame number" but that isn't what is shown on the photo.
If they don't need to give an explanation why give one that is
confusing...
[/quote]
When I say "I" did it, the forms were completed by the keeper,
with my guidance. He wrote on the form and he signed it.
For the request for it to be completed as a single offence, I
wrote the email, then read it out to the keeper for his
approval, before sending it from the keepers email address.
Yes, like you, I couldn't understand the reference to New
Recording, which is not what was shown in the photos.
#Post#: 23054--------------------------------------------------
Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: May 19, 2024, 7:35 am
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I think that strictly speaking it’s not a single offence (for
which only one penalty will ensue) but rather two offences
committed on the same occasion (two fines, one set of points).
#Post#: 23060--------------------------------------------------
Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: May 19, 2024, 8:09 am
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A plea for clemency is a plea for clemency regardless of how it
might be categorized if it gets to court. The police have a
discretion in the disposal of offences/allegations that the
courts do not. Whilst the police are statistically unlikely to
show leniency, it costs nothing to ask.
As the driver is adamant that he didn't double back on himself,
I would suggest that the chances of him being able to give
compelling evidence that he maintained a speed in excess of
30mph throughout the roundabout that he never doubled back on
himself on, is even more remote than the chances that he did so
- so it is almost certain that he had separately exceeded the
speed limit on both occasions, so not a single continuing
offence.
For multiple offences committed on the same occasion, the court
should fine for each offence but only give points for the most
serious - in which case he would almost certainly be better off
with a fixed penalty and a course, assuming that the police
don't decide to play nice.
#Post#: 23078--------------------------------------------------
Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
DIR By: Rallyman72
Date: May 19, 2024, 12:08 pm
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--- Quote from: andy_foster link ---
>
> For multiple offences committed on the same occasion, the
court should fine for each offence but only give points for the
most serious - in which case he would almost certainly be better
off with a fixed penalty and a course, assuming that the police
don't decide to play nice.
>
--- End Quote ---
Unfortunately a course isn't an option as it is disclosed, in
the original post, that the driver has completed a course in the
last 3 years.
#Post#: 23080--------------------------------------------------
Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: May 19, 2024, 1:25 pm
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Several thing were disclosed in the OP, mainly about a dance
which had an admission charge of 3 shillings and four pence.
That said, I probably should have re-read it before offering
irrelevant advice.
If a course is not on the cards, if the best option, as always
is if the police will drop on of the allegations. If not, then
it would seem to be a choice of accepting 2 fixed penalties, or
going to court to argue the same occasion. Not sure whether the
same occasion legislation has a provision for fixed penalties -
IOW whether it is viable to accept a fixed penalty for one and
only be fined in court for the other.
#Post#: 23081--------------------------------------------------
Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: May 19, 2024, 1:31 pm
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--- Quote ---
> Where a person is convicted (whether on the same occasion or
not) of two or more offences committed on the same occasion and
involving obligatory endorsement, the total number of penalty
points to be attributed to them is the number or highest number
that would be attributed on a conviction of one of them (so that
if the convictions are on different occasions the number of
penalty points to be attributed to the offences on the later
occasion or occasions shall be restricted accordingly).
--- End Quote ---
As accepting a fixed penalty isn’t a conviction, probably not.
#Post#: 23098--------------------------------------------------
Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: May 19, 2024, 3:55 pm
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Unless the statute was drafted somewhat haphazardly and the
relevant provision was 2 sections later...
--- Quote ---
>
> (1) Sections 28 and 29 of this Act shall have effect subject
to this section in any case where—
> (a) a person is convicted of an offence involving obligatory
endorsement, and
> (b) the court is satisfied that his driving record has been or
is liable to be endorsed under section 57A or 77 of this Act in
respect of an offence (referred to in this section as the “
connected offence ”) committed on the same occasion as the
offence of which he is convicted.
> (2) the number of penalty points to be attributed to the
offence of which he is convicted is—
> (a) the number of penalty points to be attributed to that
offence under section 28 of this Act apart from this section,
less
> (b) the number of penalty points required to be endorsed on
his driving record under section 57A or 77A of this Act in
respect of the connected offence (except so far as they have
already been deducted by virtue of this paragraph).
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 23113--------------------------------------------------
Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: May 19, 2024, 4:58 pm
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That’s fortunate for the OP.
#Post#: 23305--------------------------------------------------
Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
DIR By: Fr3ddi3
Date: May 21, 2024, 2:09 am
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Email response this morning from Sussex police.
"Thank you for your e-mail.
If you have been able to view the photographic evidence, it will
show that your vehicle is showing going different directions.
At 16:31:09 your vehicle is shown from the front.
At 16:31:58, your vehicle is shown from the behind
Therefore, this would be classed as two offences, therefore we
cannot treat this as a single offence.
Please return the Notice Of Intended Prosecution to our office,
this can be by e-mail at the above e-mail address or by post."
I confess I don't really understand the legal quotes above or
what it means for the driver and what his best course of action
will be when he receives a response (I guess it partially
depends on what response he receives)
#Post#: 23377--------------------------------------------------
Re: 2 x NIP in 49 seconds - A21 John Cross Sussex
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: May 21, 2024, 6:43 am
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--- Quote ---
> I confess I don't really understand the legal quotes above or
what it means for the driver and what his best course of action
will be when he receives a response (I guess it partially
depends on what response he receives)
--- End Quote ---
It means that where a driver is convicted of two or more
offences that occurred “on the same occasion”, although he may
be fined for each of them and also have his driving record
endorsed with each of them, he should only be given one lot of
penalty points (for the most serious).
The interpretation of “on the same occasion” is crucial in your
friend’s case. If, say, you were stopped for speeding and you
also had no insurance, it is clear that you committed those two
offences on the same occasion and as a result you would only
receive points for the no insurance offence. “On the same
occasion” is not defined. However, southpaw seems quite
confident that your friend’s circumstances are covered by that
phrase. I’m not aware of any case law which addresses that issue
(which southpaw may be aware of) but I’m not so sure your
friend’s circumstances stretch to be seen as “on the same
occasion”. If he was detected speeding an hour later I would
argue that does not amount to being “on the same occasion.” So
how long does an “occasion” last? Only a court can answer that.
Now that the police have stated that they do not consider this
to be a single offence it is likely that they will offer your
friend a fixed penalty (£100 and three points) for each. If he
allows both matters to go to court to argue that they took place
on the same occasion he may be successful and walk away with
only three points. But if he is, it will cost him a whole lot
more money than the fixed penalties. The total cost (fine,
prosecution costs and "Victim Surcharge") for just one of the
two will almost certainly be at least three times the cost of
one fixed penalty and possibly much more, depending on his
income. He will still also have a conviction and an endorsement
on his record for the second offence which will have to be
declared even though it did not attract penalty points.
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