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#Post#: 1225--------------------------------------------------
TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill
Fire Station
DIR By: P.Parker
Date: July 13, 2023, 7:54 am
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Hi
I originally posted this on Pepipoo. I would like to know what
grounds I might have to appeal a PCN I received on 11th July
2023 dated 1st July 2023 by post. The postal delay afforded me
only a few days to respond.
Yesterday I called TFL and asked for a copy of the video
evidence. The lady I spoke to asked me what the circumstances
were. I gave a brief answer along the lines of what I've written
below, but I clearly stated that I would need to see the video
evidence for better recollection. I didn't want the discussion
to necessarily form a pillar of my clallenge.
Photos:
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/s/ejnvtlyvylhlfxg/IMG_4800.JPG?dl=0
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/s/8evpt3sjlstuxbw/IMG_4801.JPG?dl=0
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/s/gsotdgxawc3jrqo/P...Viewer.jpg?dl=0
Location
HTML https://goo.gl/maps/kXBkL4hQ5jurzJQ96.
I originally intended to wait for the box to clear but the
driver behind was impatient and tooted me to get moving. I've
never driven this road before so I proceeded using best
judegement. I was almost across the box when the traffic in
front stopped suddenly. Subsequently I had to stop in the box.
Had I not been in so close to the car in front due the
unexpected stop or if I'd known there was a camera, I might have
quickly moved into the right lane, which was clear.
The photos online show what I presume to be my car squeezed in
behind the one on front. The registration mark is not visible
until well after I've left the box. The photo of my registration
appears to taken further up the road at the A3 road marking. As
I understand it, the law states that "You must not enter the box
until your exit road or lane is clear". The exit road on my was
clear on the right when I entered the box, I just didn't think
to switch to that lane when the traffic stopped. I felt I was
clear of the firestation access and I guess, on an unfamiliar
road and faced with a split second decision, I took what I
preceived as the safe option and stopped half inside the box,
rather than changing to the clear right hand lane while inside
the box.
I've not yet been able to view the video. I was a bit miffed at
only having a few days to challenge the PCN, but the lady I
spoke to at TFL told me I've been granted a 14 day extension so
I can receive and view the video evidence before deciding
whether to make a challenge.
I can afford the fine but I'd rather not pay if I've committed
no offence (under the law) or the PCN doesn't meet the legal
requirements to enforce it.
Please advise. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
#Post#: 1259--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill
Fire Station
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: July 13, 2023, 5:27 pm
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If you haven't received the video in a week call TFL to chase it
up.
It's impossible for us to give any advice on a yellow box case
without seeing the video.
#Post#: 1360--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill
Fire Station
DIR By: P.Parker
Date: July 16, 2023, 9:41 am
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Thanks, I've set a reminder
#Post#: 1608--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill
Fire Station
DIR By: P.Parker
Date: July 20, 2023, 9:07 am
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I've not received the video from TFL yet and it's been 8 days.
The status online shows it's on hold until 1st August. I called
TFL and told the operator the video hadn't arrived. I expressed
my concern that it might not arrive within 14 days - given the
PCN only arrived 10 days after the notice date.
The phone operator asked me why I needed the video anyway as it
was obviously my car in the photo. He suggested I should just
pay the fine if I was worried. I told him I wanted the video as
there is no evidence in the photos to suggest I broke any laws.
There are two photos where a car is partially inside a box but
that car is mostly hidden behind a van. The only photo where a
car has a visible registration plate is from further up the
road, outside of the box.
I asked the operator how long I should wait for the video to
arrive, before calling to have the hold period extended. He
suggested I call back in a week's time. I'll give it until next
Tuesday 25th July.
#Post#: 1609--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill
Fire Station
DIR By: P.Parker
Date: July 20, 2023, 9:27 am
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These are the only photos TFL have provided online. They don't
provide any conclusive evidence to support the charge.
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/s/f1u5szlm2dum123/First%20shot%20in%20the%20box.jpg?dl=0
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/s/417s4ughmj3gh45/2nd%20shot%20in%20the%20box.jpg?dl=0
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/s/pw2bkq5xe3a6zw2/Some%20way%20north%20of%20the%20box.jpg?dl=0
I think it's clear why I need to see the video evidence.
#Post#: 1646--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill
Fire Station
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: July 20, 2023, 4:31 pm
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If you haven't got the video by 31 July, just put in a one line
representation saying the contravention did not occur.
#Post#: 1722--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill
Fire Station
DIR By: P.Parker
Date: July 21, 2023, 2:21 pm
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Thanks. The video arrived today (21st July). So ten days for the
PCN and nine for the video. Fortunately my old G4 Mac Powerbook
still fires up, so I could use the DVD drive to transfer the
file to a USB stick. TFL seem to be stuck in the past. I don't
know why they can't just host these videos on a server,
accessible through a reference code.
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/s/66yd3dtvzcal9rb/2525804.mkv?dl=0
Unfortunately the video supplied is a rather long length of
footage. For my cameo, I enter stage left at 15:28:36.0 and exit
stage right at about 15:29:12.0. My car is the sunset orange
late model BMW 3 series sedan - it looks almost red in the
video.
The video shows me changing lanes once inside the box but, as I
understand it, the contravention relates to the moment I enter
the box. To quote the Highway Code: "You must not enter a Yellow
Box Junction unless your exit is clear or if you are turning
right but need to wait in the box because of oncoming, moving
traffic".
It seems by the word of the law that a Code 31 contravention
must occurr at the moment one enters a box. I could argue that
the lane I was (still) in as I entered the box - the right lane
- was sufficiently clear to exit the box without stopping. There
was a VW van in front, but the road was completely clear in
front of that vehicle and the Mercedes van that was behind me in
the right lane was also able to pass through the box without
stopping. Had I continued in that right lane I would have
cleared the box. because I chose to change lanes inside the box,
I ended up stuck and forced to stop in the box. That seems to be
another matter altogether than the contravention I've been
charged with.
Am I clutching at semantic straws? If you think that defence
won't wash please suggest anything else. I'm all ears, or all
eyes, if you prefer.
The reason I changed lanes there was because the A3 branches
left at that point. I took that opportunity to change lanes
without having to squeeze in after the box. In fact, it was
traffic squeezing in from the right lane that stopped the left
lane and, ultimately, landed me stuck in the box.
All ideas and suggestions are welcome. I'd like very much to
fight this but I'm not holding a lot of hope.
#Post#: 1728--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill
Fire Station
DIR By: MrChips
Date: July 21, 2023, 3:58 pm
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In my opinion, the video shows a contravention. Your vehicle
enters the box junction in such a way that it has to stop within
due to presence of stationary vehicles.
I'm just wondering though... the offence occurs at the point of
entry which was at 1528. The PCN says the offence occurs at
1529.
Contravention as stated on PCN didn't occur?
#Post#: 1740--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill
Fire Station
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: July 21, 2023, 7:14 pm
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--- Quote from: P.Parker link ---
>
> Am I clutching at semantic straws? If you think that defence
won't wash please suggest anything else. I'm all ears, or all
eyes, if you prefer.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, I don't see any adjudicator buying that argument.
--- Quote from: MrChips link ---
>
> I'm just wondering though... the offence occurs at the point
of entry which was at 1528. The PCN says the offence occurs at
1529.
>
> Contravention as stated on PCN didn't occur?
>
--- End Quote ---
That's a good point, it's certainly arguable but not a sure
thing, as it could go either way.
P.Parker, try drafting a representation based on this suggestion
and put it on here for review.
#Post#: 1747--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Code 31 Entering stopping in box junction SW18 West Hill
Fire Station
DIR By: P.Parker
Date: July 21, 2023, 8:09 pm
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Thanks all. Will draft something on that, but I have to attend a
wedding today (Sat)
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