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#Post#: 24768--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN, asleep in the car
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: June 2, 2024, 4:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: estevenin link ---
>
> Have we lost our humanity here ? For all he knows, I could
have fainted, or worst, I could be dead in the car. Imagine the
cynism of the situation, where I am dead in the car, and the
enforcement officer writing a PCN whilst rotting inside. The
first thing I would do is knock on the window, if no answer I
might call an ambulance or at the very least open the door to
check that the person is alive in there.
>
--- End Quote ---
[member=1682]estevenin[/member] funny you say that:
HTML https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/14372157.traffic-warden-gives-lorry-parking-fine-after-driver-dies-at-the-wheel-in-halliwell-bolton/
HTML https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23582311
HTML https://web.archive.org/web/20170113035239/http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1337129/Traffic-warden-slaps-dead-man-car-parking-ticket-Cambridge.html
By the letter of the law there is nothing to stop an authority
enforcing a PCN against the deceased person's estate.
Anyway, I have requested the traffic order, in the meantime
please can you show us a copy of what you've sent?
#Post#: 27521--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN, asleep in the car
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: June 25, 2024, 6:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=1682]estevenin[/member] here is a copy of The East
Hertfordshire District Council (Control of Parking)
(Consolidation) Order 2020
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NEMb7eBabDq8gd9Rbw6zUTMxSklyGxF3/view.
Are you still with us?
#Post#: 28407--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN, asleep in the car
DIR By: estevenin
Date: July 2, 2024, 8:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> [quote author=estevenin link=topic=1899.msg24342#msg24342
date=1716978559]
> Have we lost our humanity here ? For all he knows, I could
have fainted, or worst, I could be dead in the car. Imagine the
cynism of the situation, where I am dead in the car, and the
enforcement officer writing a PCN whilst rotting inside. The
first thing I would do is knock on the window, if no answer I
might call an ambulance or at the very least open the door to
check that the person is alive in there.
>
--- End Quote ---
[member=1682]estevenin[/member] funny you say that:
HTML https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/14372157.traffic-warden-gives-lorry-parking-fine-after-driver-dies-at-the-wheel-in-halliwell-bolton/
HTML https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23582311
HTML https://web.archive.org/web/20170113035239/http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1337129/Traffic-warden-slaps-dead-man-car-parking-ticket-Cambridge.html
By the letter of the law there is nothing to stop an authority
enforcing a PCN against the deceased person's estate.
Anyway, I have requested the traffic order, in the meantime
please can you show us a copy of what you've sent?
[/quote]
That comes at no surprise to me...
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> Even if you lose the case, you can still complain to the
council about the CEO.
>
--- End Quote ---
They might give him a medal
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> As I understand it, the OP has submitted reps.
>
> OP, if so pl post a copy here. And who is the registered
keeper - to whom the next notice would be sent if the PCN is
neither cancelled nor the penalty paid?
>
--- End Quote ---
I am. Copy of the challenge and response below
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> [member=1682]estevenin[/member] here is a copy of The East
Hertfordshire District Council (Control of Parking)
(Consolidation) Order 2020
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NEMb7eBabDq8gd9Rbw6zUTMxSklyGxF3/view.
>
> Are you still with us?
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you for that, yes I am. Was waiting for their answer.
I'v checked the order, haven't seen anything out of the
ordinary, just that part which could relate to my challenge :
Exemptions to the General Prohibition and Parking Places
7. The following Vehicles are exempt from the General
Prohibition on Stopping and Waiting and
Restrictions on use of parking places as set out in Articles 4,
5 and 8 of this Order:
(c) a Vehicle which is:
(i) required by law to stop; or
(ii) obliged to stop so as to prevent accident injury or damage
to persons or property; or
(iii) prevented from proceeding by circumstances outside his
control;
But then again, would the photo of me in the car be sufficient
evidence so as to satisfy "obliged to stop so as to prevent
accident injury or damage to persons or property" ?
The challenge :
This is what I sent :
I wish to challenge this PCN as had suffered from Vertigo, some
minutes before the PCN was issued.
Around 10.35AM I suffered Vertigo whilst driving, and felt as I
was about to faint. For safety reasons I stopped as soon as
possible, as I was afraid to cause an accident. I turned for
about 3 mn and in that condition this is the safest place I
could find, I wasn’t even in a condition to look at signs.
I stayed in the car and closed my eyes to rest for a few
minutes, and as I opened them again about 20mn after at 11AM
feeling ready to drive again, I found the PCN on my windscreen.
I have reviewed the evidence and understand I was parked without
a valid permit, I apologize for not being able to review the
signs before parking.
In this case I kindly ask for your discretion in cancelling that
PCN, as I felt I had no other option but to stop as soon as
possible. Evidence of zoom in from the warden pictures can show
my legs and hands, as I am laying down inside the car waiting
for the dizziness to pass.
I am concerned that the Parking Officer would not knock on the
window to check if I was ok, or even call an ambulance if need
be. I could have been passed out in there, or even worst, it
could have been a dead person, all instead of receiving
assistance, call an ambulance or at least check if the person
inside is ok, there’d be instead a PCN being recorded.
It turns my stomack around writing those lines as I imagine the
cynism of the situation, I wish the Enforcement Officer would
simply have had more humanity in him this morning.
I hope the zoom-in evidence showing me inside the car will be
sufficient to allow your discretion in that matter, I could
phone up the doctor if need be in order to get a report,
I’m not sure that’d help as it was a punctual
trouble, but I can do it if you require. Can also provide
evidence that I had driven away a few minutes after opening my
eyes, as I felt the dizziness had passed, if required as well.
This is their answer :
Thank you for your correspondence in respect of the above
Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
The Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) was issued to you because your
vehicle was observed parked in a residents' or shared use
parking place without clearly displaying either a permit or a
voucher or a pay and display ticket issued for that place.
I have investigated the circumstances within your
correspondence, however at this point I do not have all the
evidence that I need from you in order for me to make a decision
on your representation. Therefore in order to consider your
case, we require further information within 14 days from the
date of this letter.
You explained that you had to stop because the driver of the
vehicle was feeling unwell.
I am sorry to hear about the circumstances that you have
described, regarding the driver of the vehicle feeling unwell.
In order for me to consider your case further, I require proof
that an illness required you to park where you did.
I have carefully looked through everything you have submitted,
but cannot find any items of evidence from you to support what
you have stated in your correspondence. Without the required
evidence I am not prepared to accept your representation.
As such, in order for me to consider your representation
thoroughly, please could you send us a copy of the relevant
medical report?
Please send your evidence by uploading it to
www.hertsparking.co.uk/eastherts or by post to the PO Box
address at the top of this letter.
I should be grateful if you would forward this information
within the next 14 days, to prevent further correspondence on
this matter and the possible escalation of the case.
Once I am in receipt of this information I will be pleased to
consider the matter further
Thank you in anticipation of your prompt attention to this
request.
Yours sincerely
That gives me 2 more weeks, before they reject it. They are
asking for a medical report that "an illness required me to park
immediately". I'm sure I could get a medical report by saying to
my GP that I felt sleepy and was nearly passing out and had to
stop, but there's no illness involved and this is a very
punctual thing that might have happened only once before. I
think they didn't write "illness" by mistake here, so not sure a
medical report would even help.
If you think that it would be wise to get one anyway, then I can
phone up the GP and try to get that. If not, then I just need to
wait for the refusal.
Thank you
#Post#: 28418--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN, asleep in the car
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: July 3, 2024, 3:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
IMO, your challenge might actually have nothing to do with the
relevant issues in this case.
The restriction is part-time, commencing at 8am. So the first
question IMO is when did you park?
If after 8am then it's down to your reasons for stopping.
But if before, then it's down to falling asleep and
oversleeping!
The two could be related but IMO are different issues.
#Post#: 28546--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN, asleep in the car
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: July 3, 2024, 4:06 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Have you ever been diagnosed with vertigo? Or was this the first
time it's happened?
#Post#: 28593--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN, asleep in the car
DIR By: estevenin
Date: July 4, 2024, 6:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> IMO, your challenge might actually have nothing to do with the
relevant issues in this case.
>
> The restriction is part-time, commencing at 8am. So the first
question IMO is when did you park?
>
> If after 8am then it's down to your reasons for stopping.
>
> But if before, then it's down to falling asleep and
oversleeping!
>
> The two could be related but IMO are different issues.
>
--- End Quote ---
Between 10.40AM and 11AM roughly. I stopped as soon as I could
and layed down for a second. That made me fell asleep. I opened
my eyes 20mn later and saw the PCN on the windscreen.
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> Have you ever been diagnosed with vertigo? Or was this the
first time it's happened?
>
--- End Quote ---
No I don't have any illness. It did happen 2/3 times before in
the past, that happens if I force too much during the week and
spend too much time sitting and/or the seat position is not
straight enough. I also had just worked all night and probably
not enough food/water. When this happens I just stop for a few
minut to rest and drive home. It is not something usual and if
my work rythm is normal never feel dizzy or anything like that.
#Post#: 28631--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN, asleep in the car
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: July 4, 2024, 9:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks.
In short, you parked where permit parking only was allowed. Your
only reference to why you parked where you did, as opposed to
why you parked, is in your posts:
For safety reasons I stopped as soon as possible, as I was
afraid to cause an accident. I turned for about 3 mn and in that
condition this is the safest place I could find, I wasn’t even
in a condition to look at signs.
You would have to flesh out how you ended up where you did as
being 'as soon as possible' having regard to your route home
from work.
I still feel that there are 2 issues here:
Why you parked in contravention;
Why, on seeing your car in contravention with you inside but not
in a conscious state(whether asleep or not), the CEO simply
issued a PCN and then left(fled) the scene without enquiring
about your health.
IMO, you need to put both points to the authority in the same
reps but clearly separated.
From the Secretary of State's Statutory Guidance to which
councils must have regard and develop and publish policies:
Enforcement authorities should provide enough staff for the
volume of work. They should also make sure that those staff
(whether employed directly by the authority or by a contractor
to deal with informal challenges) have the skills, training,
authority and resources to give the public a high quality,
professional, efficient, timely and user-friendly service.
#Post#: 28838--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN, asleep in the car
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: July 6, 2024, 11:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=1682]estevenin[/member] so are you waiting for the
notice to owner, or have you received it already?
#Post#: 29430--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN, asleep in the car
DIR By: estevenin
Date: July 10, 2024, 1:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> Thanks.
>
> I still feel that there are 2 issues here:
> Why you parked in contravention;
> Why, on seeing your car in contravention with you inside but
not in a conscious state(whether asleep or not), the CEO simply
issued a PCN and then left(fled) the scene without enquiring
about your health.
>
> IMO, you need to put both points to the authority in the same
reps but clearly separated.
>
> From the Secretary of State's Statutory Guidance to which
councils must have regard and develop and publish policies:
>
> Enforcement authorities should provide enough staff for the
volume of work. They should also make sure that those staff
(whether employed directly by the authority or by a contractor
to deal with informal challenges) have the skills, training,
authority and resources to give the public a high quality,
professional, efficient, timely and user-friendly service.
>
--- End Quote ---
As for point one, I had gone through 3 streets after finishing
my previous job and didn't see any free parking, those are very
hard to find in and around London. I know for a fact there is
the stansted service area about 7mn drive from where I parked,
and it would have been very easy for me to drive there in any
other time, but I felt the urgency to stop as soon as possible,
I was dizzy and was afraid I would loose control.
As for point two, only they know! I'll respond with both of
those points, as I don't have any further to say so far.
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> [member=1682]estevenin[/member] so are you waiting for the
notice to owner, or have you received it already?
>
--- End Quote ---
I'm waiting for it. They gave me 14 further days to send a
medical report. Surely after this delay, whether I respond or
not, they'll reply with a refusal, giving me 14 further days to
pay the discount, and after that an NTO (Or perhaps the NTO will
come directly, for parking, can't remember the procedure).
#Post#: 34953--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN, asleep in the car
DIR By: estevenin
Date: August 29, 2024, 11:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi all,
Here's an update on this PCN, the council have cancelled it
following my new appeal :
The Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) was issued to you because your
vehicle was observed parked in a residents' or shared use
parking place without clearly displaying either a permit or a
voucher or a pay and display ticket issued for that place.
The contents of your letter have been considered and I can
confirm that the Penalty Charge Notice has been cancelled.
Thank you very much [member=24]Hippocrates[/member] for the help
with the procedural improperties of the PCN and the case
numbers! Here's what I sent exactly, if this happens to anyone
else.
Hope that helps, this case is now closed.
-----------
Thank you for your response. I follow your request, asking for a
medical report, that an illness forced me to stop.
1. As previously stated, I am a private hire driver and I have
briefly stopped as I felt unwell, after finishing a previous
booking. I couldn't keep on driving safely, as I was afraid I'd
pass out and cause an incident.
Based on the traffic order at this location:
"Exemptions to the General Prohibition and Parking Places
7. The following Vehicles are exempt from the General
Prohibition on Stopping and Waiting and Restrictions on use of
parking places as set out in Articles 4, 5 and 8 of this Order:
(c) a Vehicle which is:
(i) required by law to stop; or
(ii) obliged to stop so as to prevent accident injury or damage
to persons or property; or
(iii) prevented from proceeding by circumstances outside his
control;"
You'v kindly asked evidence that an illness forced me to stop,
however I have not mentioned having any illness in my initial
message, nor do I believe I have one, this was only a punctual
episode, that might have occurred only once or twice in my life,
not associated with any illness whatsoever, only due to punctual
circumstances.
I would trust that the evidence of me laying down in the car
(which you have in your possession), would have been enough to
satisfy the following "obliged to stop so as to prevent accident
injury or damage to persons or property".
With that said, I have nevertheless try to satisfy your request,
and have contacted the GP regarding this. I have received an
answer from my GP, saying that a letter from my GP to confirm
this, will cost 60GBP and take 28 days to be produced. You will
then understand that, it does not make sense to pay a 60GBP GP
letter, against a 35GBP PCN, which will anyway arrive after the
delay you kindly allowed for sending this.
Please find attached to this letter, the response from my GP for
your knowledge.
Without beeing able to provide a medical report, I hope that the
existing evidence will be enough to support my point.
2. I note that in your answer that you haven't responded to my
concerns regarding as to why, on seeing my car in contravention
with me inside but not in a conscious state, the CEO simply
issued a PCN and then left the scene without enquiring about my
health.
Whilst it would not be against the law to apply a PCN to a
deceased person as there have been similar cases before in the
past, I find it quite disturbing for a person working for the
public, to leave a person in an unconscious state, whether or
not the Officer decides to apply a PCN.
In addition to my previous message, I also found out the
following facts regarding the PCN in question:
3. The wording used on the PCN is incorrect.
The requirements for the information to be included in a PCN are
set out at Schedule 2 of the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic
Contraventions (Approved Devices, Charging Guidelines and
General Provisions) (England) Regulations 2022. The relevant
section being:
“2(d) the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28
days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention
occurred,"
However, the PCN said:
"The Penalty Charge must be paid not later than the last day of
the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which this
Penalty Charge Notice was served"
Although the two dates will often be the same, as the PCN in
this case does not state what it is required to state it is
non-compliant with the Regulatory requirements and the law must
always be observed, no penalty could be demanded on the basis of
it, this amounts to procedural impropriety.
4. I also see that the allegation in the Penalty Charge Notice
is the standardized and rather complex wording of a "12"
allegation.
It consists of 43 words and encompasses the possibility of
application to four different ways in which a contravention
might occur.
The reason for this standardization relates to how the Mayor of
London authorizes rates of penalty, however, this does not
exempt the local authority from the legal necessity of giving to
myself an adequate description of why the claim to penalty is
being made.
This is to allow me to be able to make an informed decision as
to whether to pay the discount rate or dispute the PCN.
The PCN did not, adequately explain the nature of the
allegation, and this is another procedural impropriety.
5. Further to that, as this contravention code (12) covers
different types of bays, it is essential that the suffixes and
the additional explanatory wording issued with the contravention
codes (in this case Suffix R -Residents bay) are used as
motorists are entitled to know in which type of bay they were in
when the contravention occurred.
This is confirmed at paragraph 6 of the guidance issued in the
FAQ on Differential Parking Penalties issued on 15 May 2007 to
the various London local authorities.
No suffix can be seen on the copy Penalty Charge notice, and
this is another procedural impropriety.
I trust that first my response will be satisfying your request,
and also make you aware of the procedural improprieties on the
PCN in question
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