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#Post#: 24084--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: May 27, 2024, 1:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=1741]zeetopchoice[/member] it's not a very strong case
but this is the best I can do:
[indent]
Dear Transport for London,
I challenge liability on the ground that the alleged
contravention did not occur. At the point of entry into the box
junction my exit was clear and I had reasonably anticipated the
bus to my nearside would continue toward the first exit, after I
had entered the box junction that bus (without signalling)
unexpectedly altered its course and took the space that I had
anticipated would be free on the far side of the box junction.
There was plainly ample space for me to exit the box junction
when I entered, literally enough space to accomodate a bus. I
could not have anticipated the bus altering its course in this
way, and it is recognised in law that a motorist does not commit
a contravention if he enters a box junction with a clear exist
and owing to some unanticipated event such as a vehicle
unexpectedly altering course results in that space being
occupied by the time the motorist reaches it.
It follows that the contravention did not occur and the penalty
must be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,
[/indent]
Send this via the TFL website and keep a screenshot of the
confirmation page.
#Post#: 24229--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
DIR By: zeetopchoice
Date: May 28, 2024, 5:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you very much for taking the time to assist with the
response.
Can I please refer to previous cases and send the updated
version below? I have found this here:
HTML https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:70::INITIALISE::70:P70_CAS_REFNO,P70_PCN_REFNO,P70_RETURN_PAGE,P70_AST_CODE:1554882,2926038,60,APPEAL&cs=3CPPTSGRSd43TR9BRodiHul7O_-b84PjuJDcteNJ5zFos2clp5mrCpDXk25y11MEXfddVT44yEpX3iwtbMOX5RQ
HTML https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:70::INITIALISE::70:P70_CAS_REFNO,P70_PCN_REFNO,P70_RETURN_PAGE,P70_AST_CODE:1544568,2913381,60,APPEAL&cs=3BRERumC3mymjG5VquZ9tBXj97vQvDBUN90Pr5lNR1QsEzz8L7SAik1BC5wZo8JgQK5Pj2F2hvtX7rHdpiD37WQ
Dear Transport for London,
I challenge liability on the ground that the alleged
contravention did not occur. At the point of entry into the box
junction, my exit was clear, and I had reasonably anticipated
the bus to my nearside would continue toward the first exit.
After I entered the box junction, the bus (without signalling)
unexpectedly altered its course and took the space that I had
anticipated would be free on the far side of the box junction.
There was plainly ample space for me to exit the box junction
when I entered, literally enough space to accommodate a bus. I
could not have anticipated the bus altering its course in this
way, and it is recognised in law that a motorist does not commit
a contravention if they enter a box junction with a clear exit
and owing to some unanticipated event, such as a vehicle
unexpectedly altering course, results in that space being
occupied by the time the motorist reaches it.
According to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General
Directions 2016, Schedule 9 Part 7 paragraph 11:
11(1) Subject to sub-paragraphs (2), (3) and (4), the yellow
criss-cross marking provided for at item 25 of the sign table in
Part 6 conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a
vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to
stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary
vehicles.
It follows that the contravention did not occur and the penalty
must be cancelled.
Additionally, I would like to reference similar cases where
adjudicators have allowed appeals under comparable
circumstances:
Case ref 2230037124, Appellant Mariann Ogboyi vs. Transport for
London:
Decision Date: 13 Feb 2023
Adjudicator: Anju Kaler
Summary: The appellant had to stop within the box due to the
inconsiderate driving and change of mind by another driver. The
adjudicator allowed the appeal, noting that the appellant's exit
was clear at the time of entry and the stop was caused by an
unexpected event.
Case ref 2220796242, Appellant Premier Transfers Midlands Ltd
vs. LB of Hammersmith and Fulham:
Decision Date: 01 Dec 2022
Adjudicator: Anju Kaler
Summary: The appellant's vehicle stopped within the box due to
the unexpected stopping of a coach ahead. The adjudicator
allowed the appeal, acknowledging that the appellant could not
have anticipated the coach stopping without reason.
These cases illustrate that unexpected changes in the behavior
of other drivers, which cannot be reasonably anticipated, are
valid grounds for appeal. Therefore, based on the circumstances
described and supported by these precedents, I request that the
penalty charge be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> [member=1741]zeetopchoice[/member] it's not a very strong case
but this is the best I can do:
>
> [indent]
> Dear Transport for London,
>
> I challenge liability on the ground that the alleged
contravention did not occur. At the point of entry into the box
junction my exit was clear and I had reasonably anticipated the
bus to my nearside would continue toward the first exit, after I
had entered the box junction that bus (without signalling)
unexpectedly altered its course and took the space that I had
anticipated would be free on the far side of the box junction.
>
> There was plainly ample space for me to exit the box junction
when I entered, literally enough space to accomodate a bus. I
could not have anticipated the bus altering its course in this
way, and it is recognised in law that a motorist does not commit
a contravention if he enters a box junction with a clear exist
and owing to some unanticipated event such as a vehicle
unexpectedly altering course results in that space being
occupied by the time the motorist reaches it.
>
> It follows that the contravention did not occur and the
penalty must be cancelled.
>
> Yours faithfully,
> [/indent]
>
>
> Send this via the TFL website and keep a screenshot of the
confirmation page.
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 24526--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: May 30, 2024, 6:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=1741]zeetopchoice[/member] your links won't work, you
cannot link directly to a tribunal decision in that way.
Anyway, you can amend your representations if you wish but
personally I wouldn't bother: TFL will reject no matter what you
say, and arguments around the regulations are best kept for the
tribunal, but if you really want to it won't cause any harm.
#Post#: 24780--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
DIR By: zeetopchoice
Date: June 2, 2024, 6:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Sorry for the late reply, I've been traveling after my holiday.
I'll keep it simple and submit your version, saving the
regulations for the tribunal. Thank you very much!
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> [member=1741]zeetopchoice[/member] your links won't work, you
cannot link directly to a tribunal decision in that way.
>
> Anyway, you can amend your representations if you wish but
personally I wouldn't bother: TFL will reject no matter what you
say, and arguments around the regulations are best kept for the
tribunal, but if you really want to it won't cause any harm.
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 26184--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
DIR By: zeetopchoice
Date: June 15, 2024, 2:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Good evening, How long does it usually take for TFL to respond
to an appeal? Thanks
#Post#: 26320--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: June 16, 2024, 3:43 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: zeetopchoice link ---
>
> Good evening, How long does it usually take for TFL to respond
to an appeal? Thanks
>
--- End Quote ---
For a moving traffic PCN normally 3 / 4 weeks, but it can take
as much as 2 / 3 months.
#Post#: 26321--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
DIR By: zeetopchoice
Date: June 16, 2024, 3:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks a ton for your help with this information.
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> [quote author=zeetopchoice link=topic=1895.msg26184#msg26184
date=1718479631]
> Good evening, How long does it usually take for TFL to respond
to an appeal? Thanks
>
--- End Quote ---
For a moving traffic PCN normally 3 / 4 weeks, but it can take
as much as 2 / 3 months.
[/quote]
#Post#: 26602--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
DIR By: cross_legend
Date: June 18, 2024, 1:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
If you know how to do video editing and annotation I believe you
have good chance to win.
If we focus on 2:19 of the video, when you just entered the YBJ,
the bus shadowed the path that you were going to use from the
view point of the camera. If you can use some tool to remove the
bus from the image we should be able to show clearly that there
was a clear path and a clear exit (there were other cars moving
long the path and the exit, but they were not blocking). The
position of the bus at 2:19, if we can draw a line around its
perimeter on the ground, I believe there is no way you can tell
that it will block your exit in a few seconds. Even when the
bus has switched lane and stopped, its tail just sit at the left
edge of your exit, actually there was no way the bus was
blocking your path or exit at 2:19.
You can also argue that at 2:16, there was another black car
exactly to the right of the bus and in front of you. At 2:19
when you entered the YBJ, the black car is right in the shadow
of the bus. It successfully entered and leaved the YBJ. You were
supposed to follow the black car's path when you entered the
YBJ. The black car's existence actually is your proof.
[member=1]cp8759[/member] 's representation is good enough. The
difficult part is how to show it clearly via image and video.
The adjudicator does not necessarily have the patience to study
the video as thoroughly as we do.
#Post#: 26604--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
DIR By: zeetopchoice
Date: June 18, 2024, 2:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I will check with my friends to see if the proposed editing is
possible. Thank you very much for thoroughly reviewing the
video; your help is greatly appreciated.
--- Quote from: cross_legend link ---
>
> If you know how to do video editing and annotation I believe
you have good chance to win.
>
> If we focus on 2:19 of the video, when you just entered the
YBJ, the bus shadowed the path that you were going to use from
the view point of the camera. If you can use some tool to remove
the bus from the image we should be able to show clearly that
there was a clear path and a clear exit (there were other cars
moving long the path and the exit, but they were not blocking).
The position of the bus at 2:19, if we can draw a line around
its perimeter on the ground, I believe there is no way you can
tell that it will block your exit in a few seconds. Even when
the bus has switched lane and stopped, its tail just sit at the
left edge of your exit, actually there was no way the bus was
blocking your path or exit at 2:19.
>
> You can also argue that at 2:16, there was another black car
exactly to the right of the bus and in front of you. At 2:19
when you entered the YBJ, the black car is right in the shadow
of the bus. It successfully entered and leaved the YBJ. You were
supposed to follow the black car's path when you entered the
YBJ. The black car's existence actually is your proof.
>
> [member=1]cp8759[/member] 's representation is good enough.
The difficult part is how to show it clearly via image and
video. The adjudicator does not necessarily have the patience to
study the video as thoroughly as we do.
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 26623--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: June 18, 2024, 4:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cross_legend link ---
>
> [member=1]cp8759[/member] 's representation is good enough.
The difficult part is how to show it clearly via image and
video. The adjudicator does not necessarily have the patience to
study the video as thoroughly as we do.
>
--- End Quote ---
That's why you ask for a hearing rather than a decision on the
papers, but obviously the clear the evidence the easier the task
becomes.
In one case the adjudicator had to listen to me and my opponent
for over four hours.
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