DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so ...
*****************************************************
#Post#: 22457--------------------------------------------------
TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
DIR By: zeetopchoice
Date: May 14, 2024, 3:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi, I'm seeking some guidance regarding a PCN I recently
received from TFL for Stopping in a Box Junction. I'm reaching
out to the knowledgeable members of this forum for their expert
opinions on whether I have grounds to challenge or appeal this
notice.
I've already reached out to TFL, and they've placed the PCN on
hold until 15th June, 2024, while they provide me with the
relevant footage.
Below, I've included the email I sent to TFL and their response
for your reference.
I appreciate any insights or advice you can offer on this
matter. Apologies in advance for long winded post.
Unfortunately for some reason i have the dash cam footage after
the contravention but not the actual contravention itself. I
think dash cam only saved protected data when moved from
stationary and over ridden the rest.
My email to TFL:
Dear Sirs,
I hope this email finds you well.
Please find attached my completed Subject Access Request Form,
along with a copy of my driving license and a recent full
picture, as required for the request.
I am writing to request access to CCTV footage regarding Penalty
Charge Notice (PCN) reference number GX14838638, issued on
04/05/2024, at 14:00, at Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5. I
received notice of this PCN on the afternoon of 11th May 2025,
despite it being dated 09th May 2024, which I understand may be
attributed to the typical delivery time for mail.
I am seeking this footage to clarify the circumstances
surrounding the aforementioned PCN. Specifically, I require
footage of the incident involving a black Skoda Kodiaq with the
registration PB06 AMB. Additionally, I am requesting footage
from the onboard cameras of the TFL bus with registration LK64
EHW. The PCN only includes two images, timestamped at 14:00:30.1
BST and 14:00:52.5 BST, depicting the vehicle's movement from
Church Rd/A312 to Western Ave/A40 via the slip road to
M25/Oxford/Uxbridge. It is imperative to review additional
footage to accurately assess the events leading to the PCN
issuance.
During the incident, the black Skoda Kodiaq vehicle registration
PB06 AMB encountered interference from a TFL bus, registration
LK64 EHW, which executed an incorrect U-turn on the roundabout,
heading towards Northolt. This manoeuvre caused the vehicle to
momentarily halt in a box junction, necessitating further
investigation into the events recorded by the CCTV cameras.
Moreover, it's crucial to highlight that the incident leading to
the PCN issuance was exacerbated by the erroneous manoeuvre of
the TFL bus. The bus was in the incorrect lane for its intended
exit, and it left a significant gap in front, effectively
blocking the lane change for other vehicles and resulting in a
temporary stoppage. The bus, positioned in the exit lane to
Western Ave/A40 via the slip road to M25/Oxford/Uxbridge, should
have been in the middle lane as it was taking the fourth exit
towards Church Rd/A312 leading to Northolt.
In addition to the requested footage for vehicle registration
PB06 AMB, can I please request access to CCTV footage from the
onboard cameras of the TFL bus with registration LK64 EHW. Given
that these buses are equipped with CCTV, this footage will
provide valuable insight into the incident and aid in its
resolution.
Furthermore, upon reviewing the footage from car's dashcam, I
noticed discrepancies in the timing of the images provided with
the PCN. To address this concern, I would appreciate your
assistance with the following inquiries regarding the Southern
Arm Target Roundabout UB5 CCTV camera:
- Details regarding the last servicing and calibration of the
camera and sensor equipment, including dates of the previous
service and calibration.
- Due dates for the next servicing and calibration.
- Manufacturer recommendations regarding the timeframes between
servicing and calibration.
- The initial installation date of the camera and sensor
equipment.
- Manufacturer recommendations regarding the lifespan of the
camera and sensor equipment.
Additionally, can I please request that the PCN be placed on
hold pending the review and provision of the requested CCTV
footage. Although I am aware that I have 14 days from the date
of the notice to make payment, with a 50% reduced charge, given
the discrepancy in the date of receipt, I urge for an extension
of this deadline to ensure a fair and thorough review of the
evidence.
In light of these circumstances, can I please request your
prompt attention to this matter and a timely response regarding
the provision of the requested CCTV footage. Furthermore, I ask
for confirmation of the extension of the deadline for payment of
the PCN pending the review of the evidence.
Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.
TFL response:
Thank you for your email, received 13 May 2024, regarding
Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) GX14838638.
Please be advised, Yellow Box Junctions (YBJs) are put in place
to keep the junctions clear for through-traffic and to avoid
traffic jams. They also keep the road space free to ensure fire
engines always have a clear exit from fire stations.
You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is
clear. However, you may enter a YBJ and wait when you want to
turn right and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming
traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.
Also, a vehicle may enter a YBJ when its exit is clear and there
is enough space on the other side of the junction for the
vehicle to clear the box junction completely, without stopping.
This said, your vehicle PB06AMB was observed entering and
becoming stationary in the YBJ at SOUTHERN ARM TARGET ROUNDABOUT
UB5 on 04 May 2024.
Please be advised the photographs provided on the PCN are
primarily used to demonstrate the registered keeper’s vehicle
was at the location at the time of the contravention. All CCTV
contraventions are recorded on digital storage media and are
obtainable from Transport for London (TfL) on request.
TfL uses CCTV cameras in locations on the road network across
London for the purpose of live traffic monitoring, to help keep
London moving, and to help manage congestion, disruption and
major events that can affect the roads.
CCTV operators based in TfL's Road Network Compliance Team may
observe a contravention via their real-time monitoring of our
network of both fixed and mobile CCTV cameras. CCTV operators
will have a very limited amount of time to collate the evidence
required to issue PCNs for multiple contravening vehicles. Where
this is the case, only the footage relevant to the contravention
will be recorded and used to issue a PCN to the registered
keeper, by post.
I can confirm, I have arranged for a copy of the CCTV footage in
relation to PCN GX14838638 to be sent to you under separate
cover.
Having reviewed the CCTV footage, I can confirm your vehicle
PB06AMB was observed entering the YBJ before it’s exit lane is
clear at 14:00:17. At 14:00:23, your vehicle switches lanes
(behind the bus), before its exit lane is clear and subsequently
stops within the YBJ at 14:00:29. Your vehicle moves forward at
14:00:42, before becoming stationary again at 14:00:43. Your
vehicle remains stationary until it moves to exit the YBJ at
14:00:47. Your vehicle is observed stationary in the YBJ for a
total of 17 seconds.
I appreciate you stating that you were forced to become
stationary in the YBJ due to the actions of the bus with number
plate LK64EHW, however, it is the driver’s responsibility to
ensure a correct judgement is made when entering a YBJ and
attempting to cross over the traffic lights. You should not
simply follow the vehicle in front, as it may stop and prevent
your exit.
As your vehicle was observed entering the box junction before
its exit lane was clear and subsequently becoming stationary
within the box junction, a contravention occurred and PCN
GX14838638 was therefore issued.
To clarify, in the event a vehicle is captured contravening
regulations on the Transport for London Road Network (TLRN),
details of the vehicle in question are sent to the Driver and
Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA), which then supplies particulars
of the registered keeper for the vehicle in question. When this
information is received, a PCN is created and sent to the name
and address of the registered keeper as provided by the DVLA.
PCN GX14838638 was therefore issued to you on 09 May 2024 using
the details provided by the DVLA.
The PCN was issued at a standard rate of £160.00 and advised
that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period
of 14 days beginning with the date of the notice, the amount of
the penalty charge will be reduced by 50% (£80.00).
Non-payment of the PCN at the standard or discounted rate or
failing to submit a representation (before the end of the period
of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice),
may lead to the issue of a Charge Certificate, which increases
the outstanding amount of the PCN by 50% (£240.00).
I can confirm that PCN GX14838638 will be placed on hold until
15 June 2024, giving you enough time to review the footage, once
received.
I have reviewed your enquiry regarding the ‘Southern Arm Target
Roundabout UB5’ CCTV camera. Please see details below for
details of the information you requested:
- Details regarding the last servicing and calibration of the
camera and sensor equipment, including dates of the previous
service and calibration:
Date of last Periodic Inspection: 15 November 2023
Date of previous Periodic Inspection: 17 May 2023
- Due dates for the next servicing and calibration
Date of Next Periodic Inspection: 08 June 2024 (+/- 4 weeks)
- Manufacturer recommendations regarding the timeframes between
servicing and calibration:
Not specified in the Manufacturer’s Data Sheet.
- The initial installation date of the camera and sensor
equipment.
Site first installed: 01 November 1999
Current CCTV camera installation date: 10 January 2023
- Manufacturer recommendations regarding the lifespan of the
camera and sensor equipment:
Manufacturer states the following in the camera Data Sheet:-
“Unsurpassed reliability - As with all Bosch products, the
camera is designed using the industry’s best design process and
is subjected to the most stringent testing standards such as
HALT (highly accelerated life testing), which pushes the limits
of products to ensure reliability throughout their lifetime
Regarding your request for the CCTV footage from the onboard
cameras of the TFL bus with registration LK64EHW, please be
advised London's bus services are operated by individual bus
companies on behalf of TfL. Any CCTV on London buses is the
responsibility of the company that runs that particular service
or route. TfL does not hold CCTV footage from buses. You will
therefore need to contact the relevant bus operator, who
operates that particular bus route, if you require access to
images/footage.
Having reviewed the case, I am satisfied that the PCN was
correctly issued in accordance with the relevant regulations.
Please be advised, to make a payment or challenge the PCN, you
will need to follow the instructions on the PCN.
I trust the above provides a clarification, but please let me
know if I can be of any further assistance. Thank you for
contacting us.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 22480--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
DIR By: zeetopchoice
Date: May 14, 2024, 5:51 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I will really appreciate it if you guys can provide any
guidance. Thanks
#Post#: 22487--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: May 14, 2024, 6:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Their video is the sole evidence, so we need to see it.
TfL are in the Dark Ages IT-wise and send it out on request via
a DVD. So please post it here when it arrives. There may also be
a technical appeal argument on CCTV, but I'm not up-to-speed on
this issue.
#Post#: 22521--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
DIR By: zeetopchoice
Date: May 15, 2024, 5:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you, I'll share the video with you as soon as I receive
it. I just need to figure out how to download it from the DVD
since new laptops no longer come with a DVD reader. Once again,
thank you for taking the time to read through the details.
#Post#: 23094--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: May 19, 2024, 3:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=1741]zeetopchoice[/member] well I've not seen this one
before:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/ThJPYM6.png
Maybe SARs are the way to get a one-month hold. That being said
can you please post up the actual correspondence you have
received rather than a transcript? This could be very important.
Just redact your postal address and leave all other details
visible.
Also have you been able to view the video? The case of Richard
Andrew Glass v Transport for London (2230065210, 25 May 2023)
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sWYOmi--LcI6EV0eCy_B0e_C3_4WgzeL/view<br
/>springs to mind.
#Post#: 23147--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
DIR By: zeetopchoice
Date: May 20, 2024, 4:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for taking the time to read this post. Attached is the
SAR request I sent to TFL, response from the TFL and original
PCN.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 23156--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
DIR By: zeetopchoice
Date: May 20, 2024, 5:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I have shared the requested documents in PDF format in an
earlier post.
I received the DVD on Friday just as we were leaving to travel
abroad. I returned yesterday evening and have been trying to
find a DVD player today, but haven't had any luck so far.
Thank you for mentioning the Richard Andrew Glass v Transport
for London case.
Should I continue trying to review the DVD and share the video
here for expert comments, or should I proceed with a
representation stating that TFL bus obstructed my view,
preventing me from seeing the traffic beyond the bus to
determine if the way was clear? Additionally, the traffic
buildup is caused by HS2 works on Church Road (Ref:
DV00260704314-02). The signage for these works is inconsistent
around the roundabout. Thank you once more for your help and
assistance.
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> [member=1741]zeetopchoice[/member] well I've not seen this one
before:
>
>
HTML https://i.imgur.com/ThJPYM6.png
>
> Maybe SARs are the way to get a one-month hold. That being
said can you please post up the actual correspondence you have
received rather than a transcript? This could be very important.
Just redact your postal address and leave all other details
visible.
>
> Also have you been able to view the video? The case of Richard
Andrew Glass v Transport for London (2230065210, 25 May 2023)
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sWYOmi--LcI6EV0eCy_B0e_C3_4WgzeL/view<br
/>springs to mind.
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 23379--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
DIR By: zeetopchoice
Date: May 21, 2024, 6:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Here is the video link. I hope this works and experts are able
to assist me in writing an appeal.
You can see the lane was clear ahead of bus and the driver just
stopped because he was in wrong lane.
Thanks in advance.
HTML https://youtu.be/lKZWQ9VEMw8
#Post#: 23380--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
DIR By: zeetopchoice
Date: May 21, 2024, 6:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I have managed to find a dvd player and posted the video for
your kind review. Thanks
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> Their video is the sole evidence, so we need to see it.
>
> TfL are in the Dark Ages IT-wise and send it out on request
via a DVD. So please post it here when it arrives. There may
also be a technical appeal argument on CCTV, but I'm not
up-to-speed on this issue.
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 23758--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL, Code 31 - Southern Arm Target Roundabout UB5
DIR By: zeetopchoice
Date: May 24, 2024, 6:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Good afternoon all, I'm reaching out to request assistance and
would greatly appreciate the community's expert opinions. If
there are any grounds for an appeal, your insights would be
invaluable. Thank you in advance for your help.
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 4
DIR Next Page