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#Post#: 22323--------------------------------------------------
PCN - North Essex - CC 12
DIR By: mang0
Date: May 13, 2024, 4:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hey all,
Council Name:North Essex Parking Partnership / Essex County
Council / Epping Forest
Location: Loughton
Code: 12
Alleged Contravention: Parked in a residents' or shared use
parking place or zone without clearly displaying either a permit
or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place
[b]PCN FRONT
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kcgT6quCd0mGuwIR8Nf-MhTvRBezhFQ4/view?usp=drive_link
PCN BACK
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MS1Qgd8CfbfUpPhkpIduvaJgF6aMtJNJ/view?usp=drive_link[/b]
In need of a little bit of advice here. Not sure if this is
actually a legit mistake by me or if I have some grounds to
challenge?
SITUATION
Late last night, I parked in this location (GSV link)
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6447273,0.0811143,3a,75y,32.37h,87.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scUa3S527fFn0ztCnsCJG1w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu<br
/>in Essex.
I genuinely believed this was not a controlled parking area -
there are no signs nearby, the closest is in front of the houses
much further along. (PIC
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VXmRo_a3beRXwaMBy4K6jxmv8tHElgVF/view?usp=sharing).<br
/>
The next lampost along just on the bend does not have any sign
on it about parking restrictions (PIC 1
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gRBZq0fGNiPMV92lW9MNhlN37qHjkta9/view?usp=sharing)<br
/>(PIC 2
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nBVYH4ngu22WT1mdlN_UAEQ94Chlx3LP/view?usp=drive_link).<br
/>
There are no road markings painted on the road indicating where
restrictions are in place (PIC
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NulSzPJOz_7s3VG1ARxagy1pmDoOEA0d/view?usp=drive_link).<br
/>
I assumed it was only in front of the buildings - so I parked
further down, well away from any signs/buildings and on the far
side of the drop kerb in front of the last house (PIC 1
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QCVmxAO15mtwGjFa5S4n0CXYUxLRArhw/view?usp=drive_link)<br
/>(PIC 2
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PouuGe6n-7qtEPlMXsYp2DhMbXXYUqBT/view?usp=drive_link).
Then when I went to drive off today, I had a ticket stating I'd
parked without a permit in a controlled area. The ticket is
'only' £35, so worst-case scenario I can afford to pay this. But
do I have any grounds to challenge this on unclear
signage/markings? It really is not clear where the resident's
parking zone starts/ends.
Thanks in advance!
#Post#: 22343--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - North Essex - CC 12
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: May 13, 2024, 6:14 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> It really is not clear where the resident's parking zone
starts/ends.
--- End Quote ---
Well, it is, but you seem to have missed this sign, or the one
where you entered this resident permit parking zone.
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/sGZ2czk87bqMiP9m6
These zones are the invention of the Devil, because if you miss
the entry sign, there is normally nothing to indicate you are in
a residents-only parking zone. However the council have put up
repeater signs, (your PIC). Of course, one can see why this zone
has been created here, because Debden Underground Station is
only a short walk away; it is there to stop people with cars
wanting to travel into London on the Central Line, from clogging
up the local streets during the day.
I think it is remiss of the council to only put up one sign at
the entry, and you could challenge this as not complying with
their signing duty under LATOR regulations.
The PCN is also not correct with the information on the back,
and, in fact is highly misleading in my opinion. It tells you,
if you submit representations they will be considered, and then
goes on to tell you that further reps can be submitted with the
Notice to Owner. But this is what the regulation requires : -
extract from The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic
Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England)
Regulations 2022
--- Quote ---
> Information about right to make representations or appeal to
be included in regulation 9 penalty charge notices and
enforcement notices
> 3.—(1) A regulation 9 penalty charge notice must include the
following information—
>
> (a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served may, in
accordance with these Regulations, make representations to the
enforcement authority against the penalty charge and, if those
representations are rejected, appeal to an adjudicator;
> (b)that if, before a notice to owner is served,
representations against the penalty charge are received at such
address as may be specified in the notice for the purpose those
representations will be considered by the enforcement authority;
> (c)that if a notice to owner is served despite the
representations mentioned in sub-paragraph (b), representations
against the penalty charge must be made to the enforcement
authority in the form and manner and at the time specified in
the notice to owner.
--- End Quote ---
Barking & Dagenham are a notoriously dozy council from forum
experience, so wait a bit to see what others say.
#Post#: 22451--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - North Essex - CC 12
DIR By: mang0
Date: May 14, 2024, 1:14 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> [quote]
> I think it is remiss of the council to only put up one sign at
the entry, and you could challenge this as not complying with
their signing duty under LATOR regulations.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you very much for your reply. I appreciate it very much -
and while I do understand I could have missed that sign, I
wonder if there is another sign in the other "side" of the zone.
There are lots of ways into that area, and most posts do not
have repeater signs on them so if you miss that one coming off
the main road then you're unlikely to see another. However I do
appreciate that there is a sign there that one could argue I
missed/ignored so perhaps I can't really argue that much!
As for the point about the wording on the PCN - I don't know
enough about it to be able to comment on that, but yes perhaps
that is a way in.
As you suggest, I'll await further advice too. Thanks for your
time.
#Post#: 23079--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - North Essex - CC 12
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: May 19, 2024, 12:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=1356]mang0[/member] I have found the traffic order
HTML https://store.traffweb.app/essex/documents/parkmap/sched/2019%20Epping%20Forest%20Consolidation%20and%20Schedules.pdf<br
/>and the order schedule
HTML https://store.traffweb.app/essex/documents/parkmap/msched/TQ440%20960_rv1_1.pdf,<br
/>there are several entrances to the zone so it is worth working
out exactly where you entered the zone and then checking the
zone entrance signs at that location. Is the person you were
visiting able to check?
Also I presume you were visiting someone within the zone, if so
could they not provide a visitor's permit for you? If you were a
legitimate visitor then you might be able to persuade the
council to afford a discretionary cancellation, but you need to
confirm whether you were visiting someone within the zone
please.
#Post#: 23593--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - North Essex - CC 12
DIR By: mang0
Date: May 22, 2024, 12:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> [member=1356]mang0[/member] I have found the traffic order
HTML https://store.traffweb.app/essex/documents/parkmap/sched/2019%20Epping%20Forest%20Consolidation%20and%20Schedules.pdf<br
/>and the order schedule
HTML https://store.traffweb.app/essex/documents/parkmap/msched/TQ440%20960_rv1_1.pdf,<br
/>there are several entrances to the zone so it is worth working
out exactly where you entered the zone and then checking the
zone entrance signs at that location. Is the person you were
visiting able to check?
>
> Also I presume you were visiting someone within the zone, if
so could they not provide a visitor's permit for you? If you
were a legitimate visitor then you might be able to persuade the
council to afford a discretionary cancellation, but you need to
confirm whether you were visiting someone within the zone
please.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hi [member=1]cp8759[/member] - thanks for your response.
I did drive past one of the signs unfortunately! Just made an
assumption that as there was no repeater sign on the nearest
post, that section was outside the restricted zone. So that's
totally my error. My partner lives there in an off-street
property right next to Ladyfields with no road access/driveway
to park on and I was parking visiting her. I have since
discovered online that I can actually pay for parking daily on
Ladyfields via the MiPermit app, even though there are no signs
indicating this on the road. It is about £5 for the restriction
time of 10am - 4pm, which I don't mind paying on the odd
occasions I have my car there (usually I don't take the car).
Advice appreciated.
#Post#: 23598--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - North Essex - CC 12
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: May 22, 2024, 1:34 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=1356]mang0[/member] do you have any mitigating
circumstances, especially anything unconnected to the
contravention itself?
#Post#: 23635--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - North Essex - CC 12
DIR By: mang0
Date: May 22, 2024, 7:46 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> [member=1356]mang0[/member] do you have any mitigating
circumstances, especially anything unconnected to the
contravention itself?
>
--- End Quote ---
What might be an unrelated mitigating circumstance in this
instance? I don't really think I do... :-\
#Post#: 23755--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - North Essex - CC 12
DIR By: mang0
Date: May 24, 2024, 6:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I only have a couple of days to respond to this/pay the fine, so
unless anyone has any suggestions I think I'll attempt
contesting based on unclear signage and see what happens. The
back of the PCN states that if they reject a contest they will
generally extend' the discounted period so I would anticipate it
will remain at £35. Thanks for the assistance so far.
#Post#: 24081--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - North Essex - CC 12
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: May 27, 2024, 12:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=1356]mang0[/member] I assume you've sent something so
please show us what you've sent. As a general rule in a case
like this you want to say that you're a genuine visitor and you
are now aware of the need to obtain a permit etc, but we'll just
have to wait and see what comes back.
#Post#: 24428--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - North Essex - CC 12
DIR By: mang0
Date: May 29, 2024, 5:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Ah - thanks [member=1]cp8759[/member]. I don't hold out much
hope for this anyway, but below is what I sent. I thought the
signage being unclear (which I do believe it was, as I
misunderstood, even if there are technically signs!) would be a
stronger argument, perhaps I should have gone with the visitor
card as you suggest. Anyway, here:
--- Quote ---
>
> Dear Sir/Madam,
>
> I am challenging this PCN on the grounds of unclear and
inadequate signage and road markings.
>
> The sign photographed by the CEO stating 'Resident Permit
Holders Only' is way down the road in front of the houses, and
not visible from where I am parked, as clearly evidenced by the
photos the CEO themself has provided (attached as PIC 7 to this
challenge - you can not see any sign about parking affixed to
the post in the photo). From where I was parked it was not
possible to see this sign, and as there are no road markings it
is impossible to know where any restrictions could be in place.
(Please refer to PIC 5).
>
> Measurements I have taken on Google Maps, it is 53 meters
between the repeater sign the CEO photographed and where I
parked (PIC 8 ). The nearest post where a repeater sign could be
affixed did not have any sign detailing any restrictions.
(Please refer to PIC 3). As such, even if one could see the sign
the CEO photographed from where I parked, as there are no
road/bay markings one would logically assume parking
restrictions are in place in front of the properties, not where
I parked as shown in the photos. Regardless of this, I made sure
not to park in front of the properties, instead parking my car
beyond the buildings, where there is no reason to assume
residents will be parking.
>
> Further to this, the signage shown by the CEO does not state
that it is possible to pay to park at this location via the
MiPermit app. However on MiPermit you can specify to park at
Ladyfields - and it does not specify there is a part of the road
you can not park on. Therefore this sign should be specified as
a 'Resident Permit Holders or Pay and Display', but it does not
specify that anywhere in the local area. The only way to find
this out is through the MiPermit app itself.
>
> To conclude, I believe this PCN is not valid due to unclear
and incorrect signs, lack of road markings.
>
> Many Thanks,
>
--- End Quote ---
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