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#Post#: 22395--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP - Failing to comply with red light signal
DIR By: BertB
Date: May 14, 2024, 7:24 am
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--- Quote from: Monkeytennis link ---
>
> I've seen the V5. I've also been told by the RK that they
responded to a reminder having not received any prior letter.
>
--- End Quote ---
At last.
--- Quote ---
> Provide a description of events (if you know what happened)
telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things
that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave
anything out
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 22399--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP - Failing to comply with red light signal
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: May 14, 2024, 7:57 am
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--- Quote ---
> I've seen the V5. I've also been told by the RK that they
responded to a reminder having not received any prior letter.
--- End Quote ---
So, since the initial NIP was not received, that clears things
up a little.
If you want to defend the charge on the basis that no NIP was
served on the RK within 14 days, the burden falls on you to
prove it. The police will almost certainly provide evidence that
the NIP was posted so as to arrive in time. So long as they do
that to the court's satisfaction it is then presumed to have
been delivered within two working days. You will have to
convince the court ("on the balance of probabilities" - i.e.
more likely than not) that it was not. Proving that something
did not happen is notoriously difficult and made a bit more so
for you as you as you will have to rely on the testimony of the
recipient.
As I pointed out, you must respond to the request for driver's
details in any case.
#Post#: 22425--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP - Failing to comply with red light signal
DIR By: ManxTom
Date: May 14, 2024, 10:40 am
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--- Quote from: Monkeytennis link ---
>
> [quote author=The Rookie link=topic=1879.msg22362#msg22362
date=1715672770]
> A Notice issued that long after the offence is all but certain
to NOT be the first issued.
>
> It is either a reminder to one (not received/not seen) sent
earlier (not all say they are a reminder, some are quite
literally just a reprint with just the issue date changed) or a
follow up Notice after a the RK has named the keeper.
>
> LOOK AT and CHECK the V5c, DO NOT take the keeper's word as
gospel, we see too many posts from those convinced they are the
RK who turn out not to be (address wrong or it's a leased or
Financed car where the lender is the RK) to take peoples word
for it.
>
--- End Quote ---
I've seen the V5. I've also been told by the RK that they
responded to a reminder having not received any prior letter.
[/quote]
Didn't the family member think to tell you that they'd
previously received a reminder?
#Post#: 22440--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP - Failing to comply with red light signal
DIR By: Logician
Date: May 14, 2024, 11:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
To be realistic, in practical terms it is impossible to prove
that a letter has not been delivered, and the police will
certainly be able to prove that it was posted to the RK in good
time. Unless you were a significant time into the red, for
jumping a red light you would get a fixed penalty of £100 + 3
points. If you chose to fight it in court on the basis of a late
NIP and lose, which is very likely, you will face an income
related fine + surchage, plus prosecution costs with a guideline
of £670. That would be a mug's game, the sensible thing to do
would be to accept the likely fixed penalty.
#Post#: 22755--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP - Failing to comply with red light signal
DIR By: Monkeytennis
Date: May 16, 2024, 5:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: The Rookie link ---
>
> So what were the dates for the reminder?
>
--- End Quote ---
I'm pretty sure it was stated 15th April or very close to that
date.
#Post#: 22756--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP - Failing to comply with red light signal
DIR By: Monkeytennis
Date: May 16, 2024, 5:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: NewJudge link ---
>
> [quote]I've seen the V5. I've also been told by the RK that
they responded to a reminder having not received any prior
letter.
--- End Quote ---
So, since the initial NIP was not received, that clears things
up a little.
If you want to defend the charge on the basis that no NIP was
served on the RK within 14 days, the burden falls on you to
prove it. The police will almost certainly provide evidence that
the NIP was posted so as to arrive in time. So long as they do
that to the court's satisfaction it is then presumed to have
been delivered within two working days. You will have to
convince the court ("on the balance of probabilities" - i.e.
more likely than not) that it was not. Proving that something
did not happen is notoriously difficult and made a bit more so
for you as you as you will have to rely on the testimony of the
recipient.
As I pointed out, you must respond to the request for driver's
details in any case.
[/quote]
Thanks.
Would the police not have something to prove postage? How can
delivery be assumed? The RK and another family member have both
previously posted on the local estate Facebook group about post
not been received or getting or receiving letters / parcels
addressed to others. The post around here isn't exactly
consistently reliable.
I could use the screenshots that show posts from the Facebook
that show local problems at least, but how can I prove that
something wasn't delivered, that's impossible unless the police
send something recorded delivery?
#Post#: 22757--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP - Failing to comply with red light signal
DIR By: Monkeytennis
Date: May 16, 2024, 5:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Logician link ---
>
> To be realistic, in practical terms it is impossible to prove
that a letter has not been delivered, and the police will
certainly be able to prove that it was posted to the RK in good
time. Unless you were a significant time into the red, for
jumping a red light you would get a fixed penalty of £100 + 3
points. If you chose to fight it in court on the basis of a late
NIP and lose, which is very likely, you will face an income
related fine + surchage, plus prosecution costs with a guideline
of £670. That would be a mug's game, the sensible thing to do
would be to accept the likely fixed penalty.
>
--- End Quote ---
.
Really? I haven't seen any evidence of the alleged offence, how
can I just be assumed to be guilty without me even seeing any
evidence, that's not how the justice system works in the UK?
Shouldn't I be requesting images of evidence at least and is
there a process to follow to request them?
#Post#: 22768--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP - Failing to comply with red light signal
DIR By: slapdash
Date: May 17, 2024, 1:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Monkeytennis link ---
> Really? I haven't seen any evidence of the alleged offence,
how can I just be assumed to be guilty without me even seeing
any evidence, that's not how the justice system works in the UK?
>
--- End Quote ---
That is the system. Don't be late in your reply or it gives you
worse issues.
The police can prove postage (almost certainly). Delivery is
presumed because the law says so. It's not great, but you can
attempt rebuttal. It has been rarely known to succeed. Take all
your evidence to court and give it a whirl. The consequence of
failure has been pointed up.
If it were the case that "I didn't get it" provided acceptance I
suspect there might be a substantial increase in the number of
not guilty pleas.
Personally, given RMs own statistics of 14/10,000 things going
missing from their own test, I think this does mount up to fair
number of people who do have a valid defence if only they could
persuade a bench.
At the moment there is a request for driver details. Typically
the next step will see an offereing of disposal for £100 and
3pts. But it could be a course or a prosecution.
The system does that in order to allow those who readily accept
their guilt to deal with it in a simple cost effective manner.
It doesn't offer "well if you can prove it I will accept the
easy option".
You have no entitlement to evidence. If you wish you can elect
to go through the process of court. There is a high probability
that they will show a photo of the vehicle commiting the alleged
offence as described. But a COFP or course is off the table.
A common practice is to ask - without using "evidence" for
"photos to assist identifying the driver". They often oblige.
But it is in their gift.
Another issue is that you commit a more serious offence if you
don't answer in time, the clock is still ticking. Also in cases
where there have been delays they may not make a fixed penalty
offer because it would allow a timeout to be engineered.
You have very limited time left. Some forces will put pictures
on line. It could be footage from operation snap.
#Post#: 22805--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP - Failing to comply with red light signal
DIR By: Logician
Date: May 17, 2024, 5:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Monkeytennis link ---
>
> [quote author=Logician link=topic=1879.msg22440#msg22440
date=1715705653]
> To be realistic, in practical terms it is impossible to prove
that a letter has not been delivered, and the police will
certainly be able to prove that it was posted to the RK in good
time. Unless you were a significant time into the red, for
jumping a red light you would get a fixed penalty of £100 + 3
points. If you chose to fight it in court on the basis of a late
NIP and lose, which is very likely, you will face an income
related fine + surchage, plus prosecution costs with a guideline
of £670. That would be a mug's game, the sensible thing to do
would be to accept the likely fixed penalty.
>
--- End Quote ---
.
Really? I haven't seen any evidence of the alleged offence, how
can I just be assumed to be guilty without me even seeing any
evidence, that's not how the justice system works in the UK?
Shouldn't I be requesting images of evidence at least and is
there a process to follow to request them?
[/quote]
If you want to see the evidence that the police have and to be
able to argue your case, then you plead not guilty and you will
have a full blown court hearing. The fixed penalty system is for
people who accept their guilt, they can avoid a court hearing
and associated costs and receive a lesser penalty. It is the
same principle as allowing a 33% discount on the penalty for a
guilty plea in court. If you know you are not guilty, then you
should opt to go to court and fight the case, but doing so on
the basis of a late NIP is difficult when you have no evidence
apart from the RK saying it was never received. The police
routinely track the NIPs issued and will be able to provide
proof that the bag containing the NIP was handed to the Royal
Mail at a particular time and date. The law provides that the
mail is assumed to have been delivered correctly and on time
unless the contrary is proved. (s.7 Interpretation Act) which is
taken to be the second working day after posting. The best
contrary proof is proof of delivery after the 14 days, but in
the leading case on the subject (Gidden) the Magistrates' Court
did not even accept evidence from the postman about the day of
delivery, although that was conceded in the higher court.
If the evidence in a road traffic case is photographic, the
police may allow you to see it before accepting a fixed penalty,
but they do not have to. For a red light offence, bear in mind
that the offence is committed if any part of the vehicle crosses
the stop line while the red light is showing (techically, or if
the amber light is showing unless it would have been dengerous
to stop, although that is rarely prosecuted)
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