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#Post#: 22022--------------------------------------------------
ECP Parking PCN – Payment Permit not enough Cover – Treaty
Centre, Hounslow
DIR By: NothingPCN
Date: May 10, 2024, 3:31 am
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Dear FTLA,
Please note first appeal has been sent by an over zealous family
member as they thought common sense would prevail but this has
subsequently been rejected.
Quick Backstory - Driver has parked vehicle in an ECP ANPR car
park and then paid via the ticket machines which are not
adjustable i.e you enter the reg and then pay whats on the
screen.
Driver has received a ticket "Breach of Terms and Conditions:
the payment-permit purchased did not cover the
date and time of parking"
Please see below rejection letter from ECP - I also attach a PDF
I am now looking to appeal to POPLA and could really do with
some assistance.
Please also look at time of issue of PCN and the "period Start -
Period End" as there looks to be a technical issue with cameras
etc.
Having carefully considered the evidence provided by you we have
decided to reject your appeal for
the following reasons:
• The car park operation is Pay on Foot – therefore each time
you leave the car park you are
required to pay.
• The car park in question is on private land and upon entering
such land vehicles are subject
to the terms and conditions of parking as shown on the signage.
This signage quite clearly
states that if your vehicle is in breach of the terms and
conditions of the car park then a
Parking Charge Notice will be issued.
• On entry to private land, it is the responsibility of the
driver to check for signage and ensure
that your vehicle has been correctly parked. Any vehicles found
not adhering to the signage
will be issued with a Parking Charge Notice.
• A ticket matching your registration was purchased for £2.00
this would have entitled your
vehicle to park for up to 1 Hour according to the clearly
displayed tariff.
• Your vehicle entered at 11:13 and exited at 12:36, a total
stay of 1 hour and 23 minutes.
• The P&D/permit purchased did not cover the date and time of
parking and therefore the
notice has been issued correctly and will remain payable.
[attachimg=2]
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 22031--------------------------------------------------
Re: ECP Parking PCN – Payment Permit not enough Cover – Treaty
Centre, Hounslow
DIR By: manila
Date: May 10, 2024, 4:38 am
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So if I'm understanding correctly, the vehicle entered the car
park at 11:13, a 1 hour ticket was paid for at 12:33 and the
vehicle exited the car park at 12:36.
On the face of it this looks like a straightforward overstay.
Can you explain why you think this wasn't the case? Also, why
did it take 20 minutes for the ticket to be purchased?
#Post#: 22033--------------------------------------------------
Re: ECP Parking PCN – Payment Permit not enough Cover – Treaty
Centre, Hounslow
DIR By: NothingPCN
Date: May 10, 2024, 5:06 am
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Hi,
Its a pay upon exit so when walking back to the car at 12:33 it
was paid which should have charged from entry at 11:13 until
exit at 12:33 so we should have been charged for 2 hrs @£3.50
but the automated screen only calculated it as £2 so that's what
was paid - there is no option to increase or decrease the charge
it is literally what is show.
#Post#: 22057--------------------------------------------------
Re: ECP Parking PCN – Payment Permit not enough Cover – Treaty
Centre, Hounslow
DIR By: b789
Date: May 10, 2024, 7:29 am
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Are you sure it is a pay on exit car park? Can you get a photo
of any of the signage that states this? If you can, then you
have good evidence for your POPLA appeal.
Can you please show both sides of the NtK with all dates, only
redacting your personal details and PCN number. Also, can you
show u s the exact wording of the initial appeal?
#Post#: 22059--------------------------------------------------
Re: ECP Parking PCN – Payment Permit not enough Cover – Treaty
Centre, Hounslow
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: May 10, 2024, 7:32 am
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--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> Are you sure it is a pay on exit car park? Can you get a photo
of any of the signage that states this?
>
--- End Quote ---
The appeal rejection that the OP has uploaded includes a photo
of the sign.
It'd possibly be useful to get some photos of the payment
machines, ideally showing that tariff calculation is
automatic/not changeable.
#Post#: 22066--------------------------------------------------
Re: ECP Parking PCN – Payment Permit not enough Cover – Treaty
Centre, Hounslow
DIR By: b789
Date: May 10, 2024, 8:03 am
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Draw the POPLA assessor by the nose to this obvious failure of
their system. A complaint (not an appeal) to ECP about this
should also be made and depending on their response, they should
be reported to their ATA, the BPA, about this.
#Post#: 22074--------------------------------------------------
Re: ECP Parking PCN – Payment Permit not enough Cover – Treaty
Centre, Hounslow
DIR By: NothingPCN
Date: May 10, 2024, 9:28 am
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Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the comments
this is our local shopping centre and I can confirm that its pay
on exit.
I will be taking a video of the entire process to prove how
payment is requested on the machine and that its not amendable
tomorrow so that I have clear and obvious evidence showing its a
technical fault.
I am more after help in drafting the appeal as I understand that
popla require it be a very formal appeal with loads of legal
speak to even remotely stand a chance of appeal.
I will upload the video tomorrow so everyone can see.
also please see images showing a sign clearly stating pay on
exit and a picture of the payment terminal
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 22082--------------------------------------------------
Re: ECP Parking PCN – Payment Permit not enough Cover
– Treaty Centre, Hounslow
DIR By: b789
Date: May 10, 2024, 10:24 am
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In a POPLA appeal, you should put as many points as possible for
the operator to rebut. You only have to win on a single point
whereas that operator has to rebut, successfully, every point
you raise.
POPLA will only consider whether the PCN was issued "correctly".
No mitigation is taken into account. They will consider points
of law and the BPA Code of Practice.
In ECP cases, they have often been won on signage alone. ECP
signs are notoriously poor. For example, here is a recent
assessors "rationale" for accepting an appeal against ECP:
--- Quote ---
> Assessor supporting rational for decision
>
> It is the parking operator’s responsibility to
demonstrate to POPLA that it has issued a PCN correctly. In this
case the appellant has stated there is insufficient notice of
the sum of the parking charge itself.
>
> Having reviewed the signs of the site in this case I must
concur with the appellant on this point. The British Parking
Association (BPA) has a Code of Practice which set the standards
its parking operators need to comply with.
>
> Section 19.4 of the code advises signs must give adequate
notice to bring charges to the attention of motorists. In this
case the sum of the charge is in a much smaller font to the
conditions that precede it and I do not consider the parking
operator has demonstrated compliance with this requirement.
>
> Accordingly, I must allow this appeal. Whilst I note the
appellant has raised other grounds in this case, as I have
allowed the appeal for the reasons above, I will not be
considering them.
--- End Quote ---
As you can see, the appeal is upheld and all other points that
were raised, are not considered.
So, You would start your appeal by listing all the points you
want to raise. obviously, the failure of their ANPR/ticketing
system is your main point. You should also include the breach of
BPA CoP 19.4 whereby, if they are relying on PoFA to hold you,
the keeper, liable rather than the driver, whose identity they
do not know, that their signs do not adequately bring to the
attention of the driver the charge for breaching their terms and
conditions.
Normally, you would also include landowner authority to issue
charges.
It would also assist in giving appropriate advice if we could
see both sides of the NtK showing all dates with just your
personal data, PCN number and the VRN redacted. There are often
other PoFA failures that should be brought to the attention of
POPLA which ECP will have to rebut.
#Post#: 22198--------------------------------------------------
Re: ECP Parking PCN – Payment Permit not enough Cover – Treaty
Centre, Hounslow
DIR By: NothingPCN
Date: May 12, 2024, 3:05 pm
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Hi Guys,
Been back to the car park to get a video - clearly shows it was
some sort of technical glitch - have also attached the NtK as
requested.
If someone could please assist in drafting the popla appeal or
pointing me in the right direction of where to get the
information from it will be very much appreciated
[attach=1]
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 22199--------------------------------------------------
Re: ECP Parking PCN – Payment Permit not enough Cover – Treaty
Centre, Hounslow
DIR By: NothingPCN
Date: May 12, 2024, 3:06 pm
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NTK
[attachment deleted by admin]
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