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DIR Return to: Speeding and other criminal offences
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#Post#: 21453--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP Elstree hill south A5183 Bedfordshire police
DIR By: ManxTom
Date: May 3, 2024, 12:31 pm
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--- Quote from: Niche link ---
>
>
> ... I will provide keepers details but it’s difficult to
recollect when this happened.
> Second named driver was at work in Finchley at that time...
>
--- End Quote ---
What do you mean by you "will provide keepers details"? You
need to identify the driver
You've said you are the Registered Keeper. Are you saying that
someone else had possession of the car at the time of the
alleged offence, but that you don't know if they or some other
person was drivving?
#Post#: 21457--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP Elstree hill south A5183 Bedfordshire police
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: May 3, 2024, 12:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> I will provide keepers details but it’s difficult to recollect
when this happened.
--- End Quote ---
As well as being the Registered Keeper, were you "the person
keeping the vehicle" at the time? If so, you have a duty to
provide the driver's details. If not you must provide any
information that you have which will help identify the driver.
So which is it? Either way you must comply with that request.
You know when it happened as you've been given the details,
--- Quote ---
> Second named driver was at work in Finchley at that time.
--- End Quote ---
That would seem to make your task of identifying the driver
somewhat easier.
--- Quote ---
> Can the speeding fine be challenged with the speed being at
the lower limit? What are the successful appeals that can be
made for this low limit prosecution?
--- End Quote ---
What lower limit? The limit is 30mph. The car was detected
allegedly doing 35mph. 35 is more than 30. if the driver
(whoever that was) wants to defend the charge on the basis that
he or she was not speeding the court will have to be convinced
that the car was travelling at no more than 30mph. However,
unless you identify the driver the speeding issue is irrelevant.
The police currently do not know who was driving so they cannot
take action against anybody for that offence until you tell
them.
I see no mileage in the lack of signature either on the NIP or
the request for driver's details.
You seem to be intent on converting what will be the offer of a
course for the driver into a far more serious outcome for you.
If you fail to identify the driver you will face a charge which,
if you are convicted, will see a hefty fine, six points and
insurance grief for the following five years. So again, what
efforts have you made to establish who was driving?
#Post#: 21565--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP Elstree hill south A5183 Bedfordshire police
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: May 4, 2024, 1:39 pm
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There is no requirement for a NIP to be signed.
For an s. 172 requirement to be lawful, it must be issued by or
on behalf of the Chief Officer of Police. It is perhaps arguable
that the authority must be indicated on the notice so that the
recipient can know that it is lawful. In Arnold v DPP it was
argued by Mr Arnold that the s. 172 notice was defective as it
did not contain a wet ink signature, but merely a printed or
described signature. The Divisional Court held that a described
signature was fine as anything that is intended to be taken as a
signature constitutes a signature. It is possible to infer from
the judgment that a signature of some description is required,
although I would suggest that you would require a particularly
sympathetic bench to accept such an inference.
At the risk of appearing arrogant, I would be amazed if anyone
had any further advice regarding the notice being unsigned, and
I have shard as much as I understand. If you want to look into
this, search BAILII for "Arnold v DPP" and have a read.
As others have indicated, there appears to be much that you
don't recall from an incident a week before. Other than the
unsigned notice, for any of it to form a defence, you would need
to prove the relevant point on the balance of probabilities.
Whether or not you are sure that it is all above board is in
itself utterly irrelevant.
#Post#: 28780--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP Elstree hill south A5183 Bedfordshire police
DIR By: Niche
Date: July 6, 2024, 1:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
No cameras found on this street.
This offence was man handed (unseen)
From looking at the evidence I can see vehicle is on a fairly
steep road caught at 35 and soon after at 32 as driver
recognised vehicle was driving faster than anticipated down the
hill
Road is called hill south.
I have a bilateral knee disability which clearly affects
pressure applied to pedals down a hill and my reaction times due
to pain and ADHD are little slower than the average person
I feel man handled speed fine here is quite unfair can I
challenge this at all to my defence as having some disability
adjustments?
Also it’s evident I did slow down immediately after being pulled
faster down hill.
Surely they have chosen this spot to advantage themselves for
giving fines and penalties?
Any other people shared useful helpful info about this specific
location?
Driver is myself with both mental and physical conditions- all
details have been now fully reflected on and gathered and I’m
now considering whether to challenge this on man handed location
unfairness and the fact I did slow down without knowledge of any
cameras or man.
If there is a way to defend this I’d like to try as I would like
to avoid points
I’ll post pictures
#Post#: 28781--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP Elstree hill south A5183 Bedfordshire police
DIR By: Niche
Date: July 6, 2024, 1:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Can’t post pic upload server is full
Please see pic above posted previously showing speed 35 down
slope and then 32
#Post#: 28782--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP Elstree hill south A5183 Bedfordshire police
DIR By: slapdash
Date: July 6, 2024, 2:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Niche link ---
> I have a bilateral knee disability which clearly affects
pressure applied to pedals down a hill and my reaction times due
to pain and ADHD are little slower than the average person
>
> .....
>
> If there is a way to defend this I’d like to try as I would
like to avoid points
>
> I’ll post pictures
>
--- End Quote ---
At 35 you would normally get a course offer (if you haven't done
one in the last 3 years). No points that way. You have mentioned
no points that are in any way relevant to a defence (though you
are of course free to plead not guilty and give it a go.
Expensive vent though).
Since your disabilities affect your ability to drive they need
to be declared to the DVLA.
"We will let you off offences because you are incapable" is not
a potential response.
More likely is a medically restricted license. Or possibly even
none.
#Post#: 28783--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP Elstree hill south A5183 Bedfordshire police
DIR By: tonys
Date: July 6, 2024, 2:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Niche link ---
>
> I have a bilateral knee disability which clearly affects
pressure applied to pedals down a hill and my reaction times due
to pain and ADHD are little slower than the average person
> I feel man handled speed fine here is quite unfair can I
challenge this at all to my defence as having some disability
adjustments?
--- End Quote ---
Really not advisable, you're effectively saying you're unfit to
drive.
#Post#: 28793--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP Elstree hill south A5183 Bedfordshire police
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: July 6, 2024, 4:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Have you responded to the request for driver's details yet? You
received it more than two months ago and had 28 days to reply.
When you last posted before today (in May) you seemed to have
little idea of who was driving and no recollection of the
occasion. If you haven't responded by now I imagine the police
might be in the process of prosecuting you for failing to do so.
Everything you have mentioned actually aggravates the offence
(i.e. makes it worse). If you have disabilities which affect
your driving you should declare them to the DVLA. If, as you
suggest, you are unable to apply the brakes quickly in the event
of an emergency (such as when you see a speed camera whilst you
are exceeding the speed limit or when a child runs out from
behind a parked car) they may ask for a medical report and, as
above, perhaps decide they will not allow you to drive.
If you responded in time naming yourself as the driver you
should have received the offer of a course by now. If you
haven't you should contact the police asap and try to persuade
them not to prosecute you for failing to do so.
#Post#: 29075--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP Elstree hill south A5183 Bedfordshire police
DIR By: BertB
Date: July 8, 2024, 5:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Those are not mitigating they are aggravating. You are
essentially admitting you do not have the ability to control
your vehicle's speed while driving. You don't want to be getting
up in court and using that as your defence.
Where the camera van was parked is irrelevant. If you
potentially want to turn this into more than a speed awareness
course then by all means take it to court and run with it. You
may get a sympathetic bench who also have knee injuries.
So you recall that you were driving, the location and the reason
why you had crept over the limit as opposed to believing the
vehicle was a clone? You earlier stated that the vehicle was
with someone else at work in Finchley. What changed? The law
will not make exemptions for you disability when it comes to
speeding. You will receive the same penalty as the Finchley
worker would.
#Post#: 29428--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP Elstree hill south A5183 Bedfordshire police
DIR By: itsnotmwyouno
Date: July 10, 2024, 1:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Niche link ---
>
> No cameras found on this street.
> This offence was man handed (unseen)
> From looking at the evidence I can see vehicle is on a fairly
steep road caught at 35 and soon after at 32 as driver
recognised vehicle was driving faster than anticipated down the
hill
> Road is called hill south.
> I have a bilateral knee disability which clearly affects
pressure applied to pedals down a hill and my reaction times due
to pain and ADHD are little slower than the average person
> I feel man handled speed fine here is quite unfair can I
challenge this at all to my defence as having some disability
adjustments?
> Also it’s evident I did slow down immediately after being
pulled faster down hill.
> Surely they have chosen this spot to advantage themselves for
giving fines and penalties?
> Any other people shared useful helpful info about this
specific location?
> Driver is myself with both mental and physical conditions- all
details have been now fully reflected on and gathered and I’m
now considering whether to challenge this on man handed location
unfairness and the fact I did slow down without knowledge of any
cameras or man.
> If there is a way to defend this I’d like to try as I would
like to avoid points
>
> I’ll post pictures
>
--- End Quote ---
You can avoid points by taking the course.
If your conditions affect your ability to drive within limits
then it will be a notifiable condition to DVLA and your ability
to drive may be withdrawn until such time that you are free of
those conditions. For this reason, I suggest not trying that as
mediation or defence.
Just take the course and drive a little slower than the speed
limit so that you can be in the new speed limit at the post.
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