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#Post#: 20821--------------------------------------------------
UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre, Coventry
DIR By: _wooky_
Date: April 27, 2024, 3:13 pm
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My wife and/or myself have parked at this car park 2 or 3 times
a month for the 20+ years that it has been open.
One of us parked here on the date of the alleged offence to run
a few errands in town.
It's unfathomable to us that we would have left without paying
for the parking and whilst we often pay via card we occasionally
pay with cash. We have no record of a card payment for the
parking on the date of the alleged offense.
My wife is the hirer of the vehicle.
The only other time we've received a parking charge notice we
didn't get advice and my wife confirmed I was the driver. We got
a whole barrage of letters, including from Debt Recovery Plus,
and we simply ignored them all. They eventually stopped sending
letters.
What is the correct course of action in this instance?
Initial letter and Third Party Authorisation from Skoda
[img]
HTML https://imgur.com/duwmGqO[/img]
[img]
HTML https://imgur.com/kd1JPgz[/img]
[img]
HTML https://imgur.com/Ywhvgd8[/img]
[img]
HTML https://imgur.com/Ax76sko[/img]
First letter from UKPC
[img]
HTML https://imgur.com/vsTENXF[/img]
[img]
HTML https://imgur.com/vnMNLIa[/img]
'Final Reminder' from UKPC
[img]
HTML https://imgur.com/5IJBfco[/img]
[img]
HTML https://imgur.com/iCQE1lb[/img]
Thank you for your help and advice 🙏❤️
#Post#: 20822--------------------------------------------------
Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre,
Coventry
DIR By: _wooky_
Date: April 27, 2024, 3:15 pm
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Hmmm... the images don't appear to have inserted inline.
They're all viewable at
HTML https://imgur.com/a/lzZnRvA.
#Post#: 20855--------------------------------------------------
Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre,
Coventry
DIR By: Dave65
Date: April 28, 2024, 6:53 am
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It is not a driving offence!
#Post#: 20890--------------------------------------------------
Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre,
Coventry
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: April 28, 2024, 12:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: _wooky_ link ---
>
> The only other time we've received a parking charge notice we
didn't get advice and my wife confirmed I was the driver. We got
a whole barrage of letters, including from Debt Recovery Plus,
and we simply ignored them all. They eventually stopped sending
letters.
>
--- End Quote ---
As an aside, ignoring them is not usually wise, although you
appear to have avoided any further consequences for that case
(assuming it's now more than 6 years since the incident, as
that's the deadline for the parking company to sue).
I note that UKPC are claiming they are able to hold you liable
as the hirer under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act,
and that they have received a "signed statement to the effect
that at the material time the vehicle was hired to you under a
hire agreement, a copy of the hire agreement and a statement of
liability signed by you under that hire agreement". Did UKPC
(not Skoda) provide you with a copy of those documents when they
sent you the parking charge notice? If not, they cannot hold you
liable as the hirer and your wife as the hirer could appeal
along the lines of the below:
[indent]Dear Sirs
I have received you Notice to Hirer ________ for Vehicle
Registration Mark _______. There is no obligation for me to name
the driver at the time and I will not be doing so. I am
appealing this charge on the grounds that I have no liability as
the hirer of the vehicle.
I note from your correspondence that you claim that under
Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("the Act") I
am liable to pay the unpaid parking charge, and that you have
received from the registered keeper a signed statement to the
effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to me
under a hire agreement, a copy of the hire agreement and a
statement of liability signed by me under that hire agreement.
Despite your claims, you have failed to comply with the
requirements of the Act. These failures include (but are not
limited to):
- A failure to serve a Notice to Hirer containing all the
information required by 14(5) of the Act.
- A failure to include with the Notice to Hirer a copy of the
additional documents mentioned by 13(2) of the Act.
As a result of this, you are unable to recover the specified
charge from me, the hirer. As I do not have liability for this
charge, I am unable to help you further with this matter. If you
do not accept this appeal, you must issue a POPLA code.
Yours...[/indent]
This appeal should be sent by your wife as the hirer, being
careful not to tick any boxes etc. on the online form revealing
who was driving. Keep an eye on the spam folder in your emails,
and chase them if they do not respond within 35 days.
I note your letter from Skoda mentions they will pay up if they
receive another notice and seek to reclaim this from you - might
be worth getting one step ahead of this just in case, and
checking exactly what your lease agreement says about this (some
rental companies do this despite their contracts not allowing
them to).
#Post#: 20948--------------------------------------------------
Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre,
Coventry
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: April 29, 2024, 1:54 am
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PPCs don't really understand PoFA, but hey-ho!
@DWMB, I'm not clear from the OP whether they have been supplied
with the docs referred to, hence these questions to the OP.
OP, you have posted a Notice to Keeper and a Notice to Hirer.
The NTH states that the registered keeper has 'supplied ..a
statement[confirming that the vehicle was on hire to the
addressee at the material time], a copy of the hire agreement
and a statement of liability[signed by the addressee]..'.
So, were the 'three' documents included with the NTH?
You've also posted the Notice to Keeper, but it's unclear
whether you obtained this from Skoda e.g. sent with their
correspondence to you etc, or from the creditor and it
accompanied the NTH.
Was the NTK included with the NTH?
And just to confirm, this process really has two distinct parts:
1. The NTK to the registered keeper. The keeper may relieve
themselves of liability by providing the creditor with the
'three' docs. That's it as far as they're concerned. The
creditor may not pursue them further, there's no second bite of
the cherry whatever the creditor subsequently decides to do.
2. The creditor may pursue the hirer. It's not mandatory, it's
an option. But in order to do so they must send a notice to the
hirer and this is to be accompanied by the 'three' docs AND a
copy of the NTK.
Why is this necessary?
Because the 'three' docs and NTK prove that the creditor tried
to recover the charge from the registered keeper, as required,
but that the keeper has relieved themselves of liability and the
creditor may no longer pursue them for the charge- and may
therefore under PoFA pursue the hirer in lieu.
An additional purpose of the NTK is as a reference document
because the creditor may not make different financial or more
onerous procedural demands upon the hirer than originally made
on the keeper and PoFA specifically refers to the use of the NTK
as a reference document for this purpose.
So, your potential grounds of appeal to the creditor are as set
out by DWMB, but IMO you should answer the above questions
before sending.
#Post#: 20956--------------------------------------------------
Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre,
Coventry
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: April 29, 2024, 3:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> @DWMB, I'm not clear from the OP whether they have been
supplied with the docs referred to, hence these questions to the
OP.
>
--- End Quote ---
Nor am I... I did ask about the documents in my post. If they
have supplied everything we'll need to tweak the appeal, but if
I were a betting man my money would be on them not having done
so.
#Post#: 21001--------------------------------------------------
Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre,
Coventry
DIR By: b789
Date: April 29, 2024, 12:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
If Skoda Financial Services are members of the BVRLA, they are
already in breach of their ATA rules. A PCN from an unregulated
private parking company (PPC) is not an "offence" and the PPC is
not an "authority".
As already mentioned above, only the driver can be liable (and
they have no idea who was driving) unless UKPC has fully
complied with the strict requirements of PoFA paras 13 and 14.
In our experience, it is as rare as hens teeth that a PPC fully
complies with the requirements of PoFA when it comes to
hire/lease vehicles.
Whilst UKPC may mention that they have received the 3 documents,
it matters not an iota if they did not include copies of those
documents with the NtH. Unless the hirer received the NtH and
copies of al three required documents, they cannot transfer
liability for the PCN from the driver to the hirer.
It will be worth reviewing the wording on your lease agreement
with Skoda to see how it mentions parking charges from private
parking companies. Unless there is specific wording about
private parking charges, they cannot just charge you an admin
fee and threaten to pay the PCN.
This from the BVRLA's own guidance
HTML https://www.bvrla.co.uk/static/uploaded/61b3298b-a918-499b-9ac8b8bea2b726a0.pdf:
Paying and recharging

Rental and leasing companies that choose to pay a private
parking charge notice and recharge it to their customer should
ensure that their rental/leasing agreement allows them to do
this. 


A sample clause, which would allow
you to pay and recharge, is: “You will be responsible for paying
the following charges: 
All charges and legal costs for
any congestion charge, road traffic offence, parking offence or
parking notice, or any other offence involving the rental
vehicle, including from the vehicle being clamped, seized or
towed away.”
Omission of the "or parking notice" contravenes the advice from
the BVRLA's own trade guidance.
#Post#: 21968--------------------------------------------------
Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre,
Coventry
DIR By: _wooky_
Date: May 9, 2024, 11:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you so much for your considered and detailed replies.
To answer the main questions (all variations on a theme it seems
:) )...
Did UKPC (not Skoda) provide you with a copy of those documents
when they sent you the parking charge notice?
No, the only documents we've received from UKPC are
HTML https://imgur.com/vsTENXF
and
HTML https://imgur.com/5IJBfco.
Nothing
was included with those letters.
So, were the 'three' documents included with the NTH?
No.
Was the NTK included with the NTH?
No, it was not.
In light of that, does the appeal need to be tweaked or are we
good to go?
Btw, this morning we received the first letter from ZZPS
Limited, a debt collection agency.
#Post#: 21969--------------------------------------------------
Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre,
Coventry
DIR By: _wooky_
Date: May 9, 2024, 11:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Also, how long do we have to appeal?
The Parking Charge Date is 16/03/2024.
The NTK (which we've only received from SKODA) is dated
19/03/2024.
The NTH is dated 04/04/2024.
Thanks again for your help and advice.
HTML https://imgur.com/zbwzo0R
#Post#: 21973--------------------------------------------------
Re: UKPC PCN - No Payment - Lower Precinct Shopping Centre,
Coventry
DIR By: _wooky_
Date: May 9, 2024, 12:16 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> It will be worth reviewing the wording on your lease agreement
with Skoda to see how it mentions parking charges from private
parking companies. Unless there is specific wording about
private parking charges, they cannot just charge you an admin
fee and threaten to pay the PCN.
>
> This from the BVRLA's own guidance
HTML https://www.bvrla.co.uk/static/uploaded/61b3298b-a918-499b-9ac8b8bea2b726a0.pdf:
>
> Paying and recharging

>
> Rental and leasing companies that choose to pay a private
parking charge notice and recharge it to their customer should
ensure that their rental/leasing agreement allows them to do
this. 


A sample clause, which would allow
you to pay and recharge, is: “You will be responsible for paying
the following charges: 
All charges and legal costs for
any congestion charge, road traffic offence, parking offence or
parking notice, or any other offence involving the rental
vehicle, including from the vehicle being clamped, seized or
towed away.”
>
> Omission of the "or parking notice" contravenes the advice
from the BVRLA's own trade guidance.
>
--- End Quote ---
We're still trying to dig out a copy of the contract hire
document. The only thing we've seen so far that references fines
is in a summary letter after we took delivery of the car...
HTML https://imgur.com/vJ6rrhX
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