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#Post#: 20829--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: April 27, 2024, 3:41 pm
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--- Quote from: northwalian link ---
>
> Go for it, but I have to say the difference between the spoken
Welsh we use up here in the north is a million miles from
anything written for legal or semi-legal needs. (compare street
English and what's in the Bible). I'd use English myself for
something 'important'.
> Certainly happy to translate but wouldn't it end up in a
Welsh-language tribunal hearing?
>
--- End Quote ---
That's the whole point !
#Post#: 20830--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
DIR By: northwalian
Date: April 27, 2024, 3:51 pm
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that's my point, who would attend that in welsh?
#Post#: 20841--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: April 27, 2024, 6:03 pm
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--- Quote from: northwalian link ---
>
> that's my point, who would attend that in welsh?
>
--- End Quote ---
For most adjudications, the only attendees are the appellant and
the adjudicator. The enforcing authority usually don't attend.
#Post#: 20862--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
DIR By: ManxTom
Date: April 28, 2024, 8:48 am
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Wouldn't it be sufficient simply to point out to the adjudicator
that the sign's meaning as expressed in the Welsh language is
different from its meaning as expressed in English?
If the OP's father is bi-lingual and can see the difference, how
can he reasonably be expected to know whether he needed a
"licence" as indicated in Welsh (thrwydded) or a "permit" as the
English says (which would have been "caniatad" in Welsh).
If the sign is bi-linguinal but expresses different meanings in
both languages, how is the motorist to know what they need in
order to be able to park legitimately?
Would asking for a meeting in Welsh complicate it
unnecesssarily?
(NB - I can't speak Manx let alone Welsh. I'm simply taking
northwalian's explanation at face value)
#Post#: 21000--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: April 29, 2024, 12:07 pm
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I'll draft something as soon as I get a chance, in the meantime
here's The Council of the City and County of Swansea the Rotunda
Carriageway Fronting the Guildhall Off-Street Parking Place
Order Traffic Regulation Order 2019
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1z9Gl-gKn4xd4EA1FNRu9NRJPS1ABwwwT/view,<br
/>I've not had a chance to look through it in detail yet, but
one
obvious issue is that the title of the order suggests it's an
off-street car park and the code on the PCN is for an on-street
contravention, and also the sign doesn't tell you that it's only
for permit types G or M (and maybe if the sign said this it
would have been clearer what the meaning is.
There is also the fact that the exemption at 20(f) allows any
vehicle with a G or M permit to park, regardless of whether
there is a disabled badge, which defeats the whole purpose of
the restriction.
#Post#: 21240--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: May 1, 2024, 3:29 pm
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Well upon reflection, I have concluded that this case is really
open and shut, so much so that if they pursued this I think they
might end up on the hook for a costs order.
The problem with this sort of case is that the traffic order
will have been made years ago and until someone challenges a PCN
to the tribunal, the traffic order never gets any proper
scrutiny (and even if someone did make a complaint about the
issues with the traffic order absent a PCN, I suspect the
council would either tell them to take a hike, or say the issue
would be looked into some time maybe never).
[member=1440]northwalian[/member] here you go:
[indent]
Dear City and County of Swansea Council,
I challenge liability on the ground that the alleged
contravention did not occur. The sign states "Deiliaid bathodyn
anabledd a trwydded yn unig", I am a blue badge holder and I
have a driving licence so I understood the space to be available
to me. My Trwydded Yrru says says "Trwydded Yrru" right at the
top.
Furthermore, the penalty charge notice alleges an on-street
contravention but the traffic order is The Council of the City
and County of Swansea the Rotunda Carriageway Fronting the
Guildhall Off-Street Parking Place Order Traffic Regulation
Order 2019, which very much indicates this is an off-street car
park, so an on-street contravention could not possibly occur.
Article 20(f) of the order indicates the bays are available to
holders of permits G or M, but nothing on the traffic sign make
any reference to any such permits, so the signage is plainly
inadequate. I would add that as the order is drafted, the holder
of a G or M permit is entitled to park in these bays regardless
of whether they have a blue badge, which would seem to defeat
the purpose of these bays.
Lastly article 21 of the traffic order provides a complete
exemption to the restriction for blue badge holders, and that is
a complete defence to the allegation.
Given that the council's case has more holes than a sieve, I
would suggest you cancel the penalty now rather than pursuing
this matter further and embarrassing yourselves.
Yours faithfully,
[/indent]
[member=1509]belt[/member] once a Welsh translation of the draft
has been provided please send the representation online and keep
a screenshot of the confirmation page. If the council is foolish
enough to reject I'll sort out the representation for you at the
notice to owner stage, I'll just need a letter of authority from
your father.
Whatever happens don't let your father be tempted to give in and
pay, as that would literally be throwing money away for nothing.
#Post#: 21277--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
DIR By: northwalian
Date: May 2, 2024, 3:59 am
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I'll get on it. Can you link the parking order please,
preferably the Welsh version. I could only find traffic orders
on their website
#Post#: 21291--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: May 2, 2024, 6:10 am
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Can I row back pl.
The PCN relates to an on-street contravention, not off-street
car park.
As such, the signs must conform to the Traffic etc. signs regs
which, as observed, apply to England and Wales.
What do the photos show?
A car parked within a box marked in yellow with the
International Symbol of Access marked inside, again in yellow.
The box markings create an area and are not simply lines. Ahead
of the car is what resembles - in its size, colour, layout and
content - a specified traffic sign.
However, the markings are not prescribed for use on a road,
neither is the ISA nor the upright traffic sign itself.
Is the location covered by the posted off-street order, in which
case the contravention grounds are incorrect. A driver/owner
entitled to know exactly what contravention of an order is being
alleged. In this case IMO the omission of the words 'car park'
mean that a driver/owner would/could not formulate a defence
based upon improper traffic signs and failure to comply with
LATOR because this does not apply off-street.
As regards the upright sign, this may include a type of user and
where this is a permit holder a permit identifier which is
defined as:
any upper case letter or letters, with or without a number,
whether or not placed on a patch which may be of any colour,
where the letter and, as the case may be, number are of any
size, in a colour that contrasts with the background on which
they are placed and indicate a type of permit
IMO, it's a procedural mess which should not succeed at
adjudication, whether held in English or Welsh!
#Post#: 21461--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: May 3, 2024, 1:40 pm
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--- Quote from: northwalian link ---
>
> I'll get on it. Can you link the parking order please,
preferably the Welsh version. I could only find traffic orders
on their website
>
--- End Quote ---
[member=1440]northwalian[/member] I only have the English
version here
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1z9Gl-gKn4xd4EA1FNRu9NRJPS1ABwwwT/view.<br
/>I'll ask for the Welsh one but it could take up until 6 June
to
get it back, so we might have to make do with the English one.
[member=428]H C Andersen[/member] I agree it's a procedural
mess, but that's not a reason not to give the council every
opportunity to mess it up even more.
#Post#: 21888--------------------------------------------------
Re: Swansea - code 16 - without valid permit - Guildhall Rotunda
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: May 8, 2024, 6:39 pm
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[member=1440]northwalian[/member] just got this back from the
council:
[indent]
We have not published a Welsh version of the Order as The Welsh
Language Standards (No. 1) Regulations 2015 applies to County
Councils, within which Sch 2 Part 1 Standards 69 and 70 covers
notices, but Sch 1 Part 3 Para 41 exempts us from that element
of translating PTRO notices. However, we can have the TRO
translated for you if you still wish for a copy.
[/indent]
Do you want me to ask them to translate it?
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