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#Post#: 19727--------------------------------------------------
Cambridge PCN OoT TE7 objected by local authority, waiting TEC
decision. N244 or not if rejected?
DIR By: cross_legend
Date: April 15, 2024, 4:56 am
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hi All,
I am so glod to find this forum. Briefly speaking I lived in a
flat and royal mail service here was unreliable. The original
PCN was lost, I got a charge certificate, waited for order or
recovery but never got one.
The best evidences I have for the missing order of recovery is
that I have sent a mail to TEC querying whether order of
recovery has been servied or not, and that happened to be within
21 days of the alledged date of order of recovery (If I had got
the order of recovery, why asking order for recovery instead of
sending the TE9 directly?). I have also followed a TE9 sent
blindly, without getting any response from TEC, without knowing
whether an order for recovery has been sent or not, but that was
outside of 21 days. Then at last I have to file the TE7 out of
time application.
Unfortuantely the TE7 was objected by local authority. Searching
in the forum it looks like most TE7 will be objected by local
authority and TEC will most likely allow the objection.
And then I will face the hard choice of whether to go with the
N244 or not due to the preventive fee.
This is the lastest response I got from local authority,
objecting the out of time witness statement. This is the first
time I know the exact date of order of recovery was served is 18
Jan, which proved my first letter to TEC is withint 21 days.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/gUEcGms.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/RHJhPPq.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/5IXvm41.jpeg
-------- Line of events -----------
15/09/2023 PCN (lost), 14/11/2023 charge certificate (recieved),
10/11/2023 representation sent by email, 13/12/2023 Too late for
Reps (received), 18/01/2024 Order of recovery served (lost).
05/02/2024: This my first letter to TEC, querying the order of
recovery because I am wondering the order of recovery might get
lost again.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/bTKd79H.jpeg
27/02/2024: Without any response from TEC, I send a second
letter with a TE9 from their website, hoping it could hit
whether the order of recovery is served or not.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/OIlD7kD.jpeg
06/03/2024: Then on 6 March I got a response from TEC,
indicating the TE9 is out of time and I have to fill a TE7:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/DYNDEYa.jpeg
06/03/2024: I reacted promptly on the same day:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/tY8bg8Y.jpeg
With the TE7
HTML https://i.imgur.com/CGvmUhd.jpeg
10/04/2024: Then on 10 April I got the reciept from TEC:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/AKMmLnX.jpeg
11/04/2024: And on 11 April I got the objection from local
authority as posted above.
------- End of events ----------
So my question is:
1. Is there anything I can do at the moment to persude TEC to
allow my TE7?
2. If the TE7 is rejected as I expected, what is the chance to
win if I file a N244, with my correspondence with TEC as the
proof of not recieving the order of recovery? Judging from
common sense, there is no point asking for order of recovery if
I did get it. However, I am not familiar with British laws so I
am not sure whether it will stand on court.
3. If I go with the N244, hearing or not? Is a judge without
hearing as fair as one with hearing?
4. If there is a chance to win the N244, then is there a further
chance to challegne the £100 or £255 fees and to get them back?
It looks to me these non refundable fees are deliberately
designed to prevent the N244, so that TEC and local authorities
can freely object and reject the TE7 without duely consider the
actual circumstances, thus deprive us our legal rights.
Regarding the lost of mails, I can understand local authorities
did nothing wrong, it is the problem with roymal mail. However,
there is also nothing wrong from my side, so disregarding my TE7
does looks to be something wrong on the part of local authority
and TEC. I am a bit surprised that these preventive fees run for
so many year without being challanged.
Thanks a lot for any help!
#Post#: 19730--------------------------------------------------
Re: Cambridge PCN OoT WS objected by local authority, waiting
TEC decision. N244 or not if rejected?
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: April 15, 2024, 5:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
What a pity you didn't come on here when you got the CC, as we
could have advised you on submitting a WS without needing the
paper OfR.
As your V5 was up-to-date I cannnot understand why the council
objected to your WS other than greed for the money. They say the
documents were not returned as undeliverd; what a statement !
They are still with Royal Mail !!
However, now it is a matter of the best option financially. In
your case with no bailiff fees, it might be best to pay-up, but
I realise this means the council "get away with it". On the
other hand if you pay for a CC judge review on the papers and
lose, you've lost the £110 plus there is still the OfR penalty.
If you win, the PCN is still outstanding but you could then
submit reps or pay the discount. I have to say, I'd be tempted
to pay for at least a papers-based review.
Don't just go on my advice, wait until a few others have
contributed so you get a balance of views. It is clear to me
that current regulations are now totally out of touch with
reality, and all the statutory documents should at least be sent
by tracked mail. This does not cost hugely more than First Class
mail and anyway, the councils can well afford it. London
councils make many millions from traffic penalties.
#Post#: 19894--------------------------------------------------
Re: Cambridge PCN OoT TE7 objected by local authority, waiting
TEC decision. N244 or not if rejected?
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: April 18, 2024, 6:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Unless you're on a low income in receipt with a qualifying
benefit for "fee remission" then there is zero chance of
recovering your N244 fee.
I can't figure out from the documents posted what the alleged
contravention is, or where it happened, or when it happened. So
I can't really offer an opinion on whether or not you would
prevail if the case got to the Adjudicator. However if you did
get the case to the Adjudicator and then lost, the likely
outcome is £70. £70 because the OfR will be revoked and the
Charge Cert cancelled saving you £34.
As things stand the bill is £104 to close the matter. Versus an
outlay of £212 (£108 + £104) if your N244 is not successful; for
N244 fee plus PCN. Or a likely outcome of £178 outlay (£108 +
£70) if your N244 is successful.
It's not about justice, it's about indirect taxation and the
collection of it. Unfortunately you're unlikely to do better
than £104.
It pains me to suggest such, but perhaps this is a case of cut
your losses.
You're right about the type of hearing. A £108 on the papers
requires a snappy well written submission to succeed. A £255
(uneconomic) hearing in person is very likely to succeed.
#Post#: 20194--------------------------------------------------
Re: Cambridge PCN OoT TE7 objected by local authority, waiting
TEC decision. N244 or not if rejected?
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: April 21, 2024, 1:27 pm
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--- Quote from: Enceladus link ---
>
> Unless you're on a low income in receipt with a qualifying
benefit for "fee remission" then there is zero chance of
recovering your N244 fee.
>
--- End Quote ---
That is not correct, in the county court costs normally follow
the event. Most people who submit an N244 cannot recover costs
because it's usually their fault anyway for not updating the V5C
(plus they don't know how to argue their corner on the question
of costs), but there is no rule of law that says the costs rules
in CPR Part 44
HTML https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part-44-general-rules-about-costs<br
/>do not apply to Part 75
HTML https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part75<br
/>proceedings.
[member=1502]cross_legend[/member] at this point all you can do
is wait. If the application is refused then the next step would
be an application but realistically to get a fair outcome you
need to request a hearing and you would probably want one of us
to attend as a McKenzie friend (you certainly won't get costs if
there is no hearing).
For now just let us know what the outcome is.
[member=13]Neil B[/member] this might be the case where we can
finally run the costs argument we've previously discussed.
#Post#: 20320--------------------------------------------------
Re: Cambridge PCN OoT TE7 objected by local authority, waiting
TEC decision. N244 or not if rejected?
DIR By: cross_legend
Date: April 22, 2024, 2:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for all the helping advices!
[member=1]cp8759[/member] I am interested to do the hearing if
you all are waiting for a case to run the cost argument. Please
do evaluate my evidences to see whether they are strong enough
to back it.
From what I've seen from other people's experience, it's not
difficult to win the N244 at hearing. But I am not quite
familiar the relevent laws and procedures, without a McKenzie
friend the chance to win the cost back is close to zero, then
probably I will just pay the OfR.
On the other hand, if you have already considered the cost
argument before and do find my case to be a suitable one then I
will be happy to run it. The TE7 process is supposed to give
people like me a fair chance, but by using the preventive court
fees TEC and local authorities can arbitualy deny any
application and leaving cost to us.
I will post the TEC's decision once I get it, and please let me
know whether a McKenzie friend is available.
Thanks!
#Post#: 26013--------------------------------------------------
Re: Cambridge PCN OoT TE7 objected by local authority, waiting
TEC decision. N244 or not if rejected?
DIR By: cross_legend
Date: June 14, 2024, 10:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
hi [member=1]cp8759[/member], sorry to have you wait for such a
long time. I got the TEC's decision today. Without any surprise
they rejected my application and the cost of an N244 with
hearing has risen to £303. The response letter is attached at
the end.
Now back to our topic, do you think my case stands a chance to
run the argument to claim the court fee back? And if you think
it does, would you find a McKenzie friend to the court with me?
I look forward to hearing from you!
HTML https://i.imgur.com/ZQEAG4i.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/vFJhEfw.png
#Post#: 26074--------------------------------------------------
Re: Cambridge PCN OoT TE7 objected by local authority, waiting
TEC decision. N244 or not if rejected?
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: June 14, 2024, 1:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=634]Nosy Parker[/member] would you be able to assist
with this one if @Neil B and I provide the arguments?
#Post#: 26079--------------------------------------------------
Re: Cambridge PCN OoT TE7 objected by local authority, waiting
TEC decision. N244 or not if rejected?
DIR By: Neil B
Date: June 14, 2024, 2:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> [member=634]Nosy Parker[/member] would you be able to assist
with this one if [member=13]Neil B[/member] and I provide the
arguments?
>
--- End Quote ---
Who is Nosy Parker?
I'm keen to see how your costs argument goes with a case one day
but dubious about this one.
What are the known problems with mail and what evidence of that
was submitted with OOT; because I can't see how the EA are at
fault here with their SoT?
#Post#: 26224--------------------------------------------------
Re: Cambridge PCN OoT TE7 objected by local authority, waiting
TEC decision. N244 or not if rejected?
DIR By: cross_legend
Date: June 16, 2024, 1:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
hi [member=13]Neil B[/member], this is also the question I am
concerning, because in order to claim the court fee back we not
only need to prove my original OoT application is reasonable but
also the local authority and TEC are at fault by not allowing
it.
My defence is like this: The first letter I sent to TEC asking
whether my debt has been registered was sent on the 18th day
after the order for recovery was sent. The window of TE9
submission is 21 days, so the enquiry letter was sent within the
window. If I had received the order for recovery, I would send
the TE9 directly. So this should be a valid proof I didn't
receive the order for recovery although I am eagerly awaiting.
While the local authority's argument is that they have sent the
order for recovery and royal mail didn't return it, so they
consider I received it, even though it is not a signed for mail
and I am still asking TEC for whether the debt was registered at
the same time. At least it looks to me that my proof should be
the stronger one and should be accepted.
I believe if I go to hearing the judge will most likely allow
the N244. But whether the judge will deem ignoring my proof as a
fault, I am not sure. This is what I would like to hear from
you. Thanks!
--- Quote from: Neil B link ---
>
> [quote author=cp8759 link=topic=1660.msg26074#msg26074
date=1718391425]
> [member=634]Nosy Parker[/member] would you be able to assist
with this one if [member=13]Neil B[/member] and I provide the
arguments?
>
--- End Quote ---
Who is Nosy Parker?
I'm keen to see how your costs argument goes with a case one day
but dubious about this one.
What are the known problems with mail and what evidence of that
was submitted with OOT; because I can't see how the EA are at
fault here with their SoT?
[/quote
#Post#: 26240--------------------------------------------------
Re: Cambridge PCN OoT TE7 objected by local authority, waiting
TEC decision. N244 or not if rejected?
DIR By: Neil B
Date: June 16, 2024, 6:10 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cross_legend link ---
>
> The window of TE9 submission is 21 days,
>
--- End Quote ---
It's 36 days in practice, plenty of time for TEC to have
answered you, but ---
Why didn't you just pick up the phone and ask them, or CCC or
why didn't you follow progress on the CCC payment portal?
You have focussed on this single issue and not enlarged here, or
on your TE7 on your brief comment about postal problems; the
normal essence of an OOT application. Nor do you seem to have
supported your TE7 with any kind of evidence. The law deems you
to have received the OfR; it doesn't need any special post.
I can't fault the CCC SoT but you may have a case against TEC,
possibly best dealt with by way of a complaint?
We'll see what cp8759 has to say.
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