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#Post#: 997--------------------------------------------------
Code 85 Parked without a valid virtual permit, Ashford, Kent
DIR By: Circle87
Date: July 7, 2023, 8:39 am
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Picture upload is not working so I have posted links to the
evidence here:
HTML https://imgur.com/a/qwvMePW
Back of the PCN here:
HTML https://imgur.com/gallery/vuIIsqY
UPDATE: Ashford BC have declined my appeal, to which their
response I have attached in the attachment sections.
I have tried to type this according to the Forum guidelines but
if i've missed anything please let me know and I will edit this
post with the required details.
Dear all,
I recently parked in a council car park in a space which was
apparently permit holders only. As per the photo evidence
attached, the sign is very small, a piece of paper attached to
the fence behind, no bay markings or anything "noticeable".
Personally i'm shocked this has happened as I legitimately
didn't see the small-ass sign. I paid for a full days ticket
£5.80 via the RingGoApp (I have evidence of receipt but can't
attach) and have confirmation of receipt. However the issue is
that this space is permit holders only. Can you please tell me,
from the evidence pictures attached, if this is fair and
justified? I didn't even see the sign behind as it's not
displayed clearly and in a noticeable place. I drove into the
car park and only noticed the space was free and available after
driving past it and seeing it in my rear view mirror. I reversed
in so didn't even see the sign! How could I see that!? I then
got out my car, grabbed my bag and went on my way. I didn't buy
a physical ticket as I parked up and walked straight out paid my
ticket on the RingoApp. To add to that, I was in a rush to catch
the train so nothing caught my eye to allow me to realise that I
shouldn't park there? If someone ripped that sign off, or if I
was dyslexic there is no way to tell that this particular bay
has special conditions. Any honest replies most welcome. I've
already appealed online and I may want to take this further but
need help first to see if I have grounds to take this to court
if they reject my appeal (which knowing my stupid luck, they
will). Thoughts? Pay up and shush up? Or throw my toys out the
pram and take it further? I can pop down to the car park and
take a video of the place if needed to get some perspective.
Sorry for my rushed post, I'm just angry and frustrated.
The Ashford Borough Council PCN Challenge and Payment website
is:
HTML https://www.ashford.gov.uk/parking/penalty-...parking-ticket/
The PCN is AS09113666
Reg: GF23OER
Many thanks. Circle.[attach=1]
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 1005--------------------------------------------------
Re: Code 85 Parked without a valid virtual permit, Ashford, Kent
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: July 7, 2023, 10:23 am
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I've had a few PCNs from Ashford before, never paid one though.
This is fairly clear-cut, as the terms and condition board makes
no mention of permit holders, so there's no reason why you would
look for permit holder signs. Here's some draft reps you can
send when you get the Notice to Owner:
[indent]
Dear Ashford Borough Council,
I contest liability for PCN AS09113666 on the grounds that the
alleged contravention did not occur. The terms and conditions
board which is required to convey the main requirements created
by the off-street parking places order makes no mention
whatsoever of any permit parking places, it simply indicates
that payment must be made, vehicles must park wholly within a
marked bay, and vehicles parked in a disabled persons' bay must
display a blue badge.
I have complied with all of those requirements, and it follows
that on this occasion a contravention did not occur.
Yours faithfully,
[/indent]
Don't expect them to accept, but I think they'd really struggle
at the tribunal with this one.
#Post#: 1008--------------------------------------------------
Re: Code 85 Parked without a valid virtual permit, Ashford, Kent
DIR By: Circle87
Date: July 7, 2023, 10:34 am
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Thank you. There is a notice board which is across the other
side of the car park and the text is not visible from that far
away. But as you rightly pointed out there is no mention of any
"permit holder" on the board. It does say "reserved bay" so can
I say that a reserved bay and permit holder bay are two separate
things? If so I will copy and paste your appeal text into the
Challenge and Appeal box on the council's website. Here is the
link to the evidenced notice board again if you need it:
Parking Ticket
HTML https://imgur.com/gallery/qwvMePW
It's pictures 4 and 7.
I have also had a reply declining my appeal which I hastedly
sent off before coming here. It's attached in the documents
upload section.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 1009--------------------------------------------------
Re: Code 85 Parked without a valid virtual permit, Ashford, Kent
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: July 7, 2023, 10:46 am
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Yes I've read all of that, and my advice remains to wait for the
Notice to Owner and then send what I've drafted. Nothing on the
main terms and conditions board makes any reference to permits,
so the point still stands.
#Post#: 1010--------------------------------------------------
Re: Code 85 Parked without a valid virtual permit, Ashford, Kent
DIR By: Circle87
Date: July 7, 2023, 10:49 am
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Ok perfect! Yes very clear cut (I edited my reply post with a
few details) and I understand.
So, I'll wait for the Notice To Owner and write with the exact
text. Thank you!
#Post#: 1019--------------------------------------------------
Re: Code 85 Parked without a valid virtual permit, Ashford, Kent
DIR By: guest179
Date: July 7, 2023, 5:30 pm
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You knew the car park otherwise you would have checked the
noticeboard. You're a frequent flier, yes?
So you're presumed to have read the noticeboard, not reading it
is not a defence.
The sign in the bay is clear IMO.
But there's nothing in the noticeboard to alert a driver to the
presence of permit bays or the penalty for misuse.
It could go either way at adjudication IMO depending on the
council's reasoning. I've won similar cases but IMO any reps
after a NTO must be smart and not just say 'but the noticeboard
doesn't say'.
If it were me, I would make reps*. I would not pretend I did not
see the sign, it's clear. Your argument would be that when you
checked the board you couldn't find any mention of the existence
of permit bays and so thought that the sign must have been left
over from a previous use. As the council's case is based upon a
breach of the terms and conditions and as they must accept that
there isn't any reference on the noticeboard then they must
explain why they consider that for every other condition of use
they consider it necessary to set these out on the board but for
the use of this bay by permit holders only they consider that it
is sufficient and legally acceptable to hang a notice on chicken
wire at the back of a bay.
Test their reasoning by asking directed and targeted questions
because how they respond, if at all, and their reasoning could
be powerful weapons at adjudication.
*- are you the registered keeper and are your V5C details
current?
#Post#: 1020--------------------------------------------------
Re: Code 85 Parked without a valid virtual permit, Ashford, Kent
DIR By: Circle87
Date: July 7, 2023, 5:57 pm
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Thank you. I'm not saying me not seeing the sign is a valid
reason for parking there. I legitimately did not see or notice
the sign there. However, the notice board I did see, because yes
I frequent the carpark and because it's a massive board, unlike
the A4 paper stuck behind the bay on the fence with chicken
wire.
I am the owner and registered keeper of the car, correct.
I will wait for the NTO to come through the post.
I will copy and paste the appeal text in which CP8759 has kindly
drafted above. Should I also include something along the lines
of:
"I have checked the board and could not find any mention of the
existence of permit bays and so I thought that the sign must
have been left over from a previous use. If this case is an
apparant breach of the terms and conditions, the council must
accept that there isn't any reference on the noticeboard to any
permit holder bays.
I therefore ask you to explain why the council consider that for
every other condition of use they consider it necessary to set
these out on the board, however, for the use of this bay by
permit holders only they consider that it is sufficient and
legally acceptable to hang a notice on plastic wire at the back
of a bay?".
I am preparing my draft to appeal so that when the NTO comes
through I am fully prepared.
Just FYI as I mentioned earlier they have already refused my
appeal within the discounted rate period (attached) and I hope
this and my initial appeal email will not jeopardise this.
Thanks for all your help again.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 1026--------------------------------------------------
Re: Code 85 Parked without a valid virtual permit, Ashford, Kent
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: July 8, 2023, 6:22 am
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--- Quote from: Circle87 link ---
>
> Should I also include something along the lines of:
> "I have checked the board and could not find any mention of
the existence of permit bays and so I thought that the sign must
have been left over from a previous use.
>
--- End Quote ---
Well you can't say that because it's not true: you've told us
you didn't see the sign, so it would be a false representation
to say that you saw it and thought it didn't apply. Making a
false representation to the council is a criminal offence, see
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/576/regulation/18
Representations should not include demands for explanations,
they should simply put your case forwards (maybe it's just me
but saying "I therefore ask you to explain why..." reminds me
too much of FMOTL arguments along the lines of "I require you to
do X or else you agree you owe me £1,000,000"). It's a
representation, not a fishing expedition, if they don't bother
to explain their position that's their problem.
What you could say is "even if I had seen the sign, I would have
assumed it didn't apply because...".
#Post#: 1042--------------------------------------------------
Re: Code 85 Parked without a valid virtual permit, Ashford, Kent
DIR By: Circle87
Date: July 8, 2023, 2:18 pm
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Thank you. That makes sense. To clarify, I didn't see the sign
attached on the fence at the back of the bay, but I have seen
and read the board.
In which case, I will stick to simply appealing with your
original text. I will wait for the NTO and refer back here when
that time comes.
#Post#: 1064--------------------------------------------------
Re: Code 85 Parked without a valid virtual permit, Ashford, Kent
DIR By: guest179
Date: July 9, 2023, 12:40 pm
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Representations should not include demands for explanations,
This is simply a personal preference, there's no legal or IMO
logical impediment to doing so. Why, who, when, what are the
staples of good set-ups in formulating arguments. They cause the
recipient to consider their own logic and reasoning as well as
making it clear that the questioner is on to them. FMOTL
arguments are misguided statements of law, not directed
questioning.
But if you claim you didn't see the sign until after the PCN was
issued - you did see the sign, you just didn't see it before the
PCN was issued - then say so. My suggested reps could be tweaked
to accommodate this variation.
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