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DIR Return to: Speeding and other criminal offences
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#Post#: 19017--------------------------------------------------
Oh my God. I've just got another! speed "A20 Eastbound,
West of Sandy Lane to East of Cookham Road"
DIR By: Donostio
Date: April 4, 2024, 9:02 am
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? - Metropolitan Police
Date of the offence: - 27/03/2024
Date of the NIP: - 03/04/2024
Date you received the NIP: - 04/04/2024
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP:
important): - A20 Eastbound, West of Sandy Lane to East of
Cookham Road (48114821)
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded
delivery? - 1st
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship
to the vehicle? - My vehicle
How many current points do you have? - 0 (but I have a NIP for
25mph in a 20mph zone due to be replied to, AND a I had a
previous 25mph-in-a-20mph-zone for which I did the awareness
course last year)
I'm reeling. I'm 49 years old - been driving for thirty years
without any speeding offences and now I've got 3 within 12
months! With the two live NIPs, will they be combined at court?
Is it worth me pleading for lenience as a person who has a 30
year clear record and has switch to primarily checking the
streets and not sat nav (which I was doing in error for all
three tickets) and switched from Google maps to Wazes as a
result of these?
I gather that "A20 Eastbound, West of Sandy Lane to East of
Cookham Road" is infamous. It has gone from 70mph, to 50, to 40!
There has been lots of noise about the new signage not being
clear enough or people not being adequately alerted to the most
recent change (the rouge/'unauthorised'50mph was removed before
my ticket though). I don't know if these have any basis in
law...
Again, I've have been relying to much on sav navs' which are not
up to date.
HTML https://www.kentonline.co.uk/dartford/news/police-to-push-on-with-a20-speeding-fines-despite-fake-sig-301685/
HTML https://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/24078266.a20-eastbound-sidcup-leads-dozens-speeding-fines/
HTML https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84nqxvvq37o
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 19019--------------------------------------------------
Re: Oh my God. I've just got another! speed "A20
Eastbound, West of Sandy Lane to East of Cookham Road"
DIR By: The Rookie
Date: April 4, 2024, 9:53 am
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By 'combined in court' do you mean will the court sentence you
for a single offence? Not a hope!
As for lenience, going to court will cost more than a fixed
penalty however lenient they are, absent an actual DEFENCE to an
allegation (was the limit created correctly, is it signed
correctly) you will now have 2 fixed penalties for 3pts/£100
each.
You're going to need to improve your observation obviously (also
perhaps knowledge of speed limits and how they are signed), if
your car has an adaptive speed limiter then learn to use it
perhaps?
Nothing in those links helps you of course.
#Post#: 19021--------------------------------------------------
Re: Oh my God. I've just got another! speed "A20
Eastbound, West of Sandy Lane to East of Cookham Road"
DIR By: Donostio
Date: April 4, 2024, 10:06 am
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I'm not sure why you think I have intimated that I believe the
court would for some reason only considered one offence.
What I have asked is would a court consider them together in the
same hearing and would I have any mitigation by having a 30-year
clear record and then being liable having relied (wrongly) on
Google maps and being subject to (particularly for this second
ticket) changing speed limit from 70 to 50 and then a hurried
implementation of a 40
- which may meet the legal requirements (?) but clearly has
caught out hundreds of people who are actively trying to follow
the speed limit. Sorry if that was not clear in my first post.
#Post#: 19023--------------------------------------------------
Re: Oh my God. I've just got another! speed "A20
Eastbound, West of Sandy Lane to East of Cookham Road"
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: April 4, 2024, 10:08 am
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I know the stretch very well (I drove along it at 6:30am today).
I also know about the publicity regarding the alleged lack of
signage and about the rogue "50" sign.
The new limit is perfectly well signed. In fact, coming from the
London direction, as well as the large "40" roundels I believe
there is still a sign warning "new limit in force due to
flooding risk" (or similar) between Frognal Corner and Crittals
Corner.
The police statement was to do with the short period when the
"rogue" 50 sign was present. This was allegedly erected by an
unauthorised party (that stretch has never been subject to a
50mph limit) and the police calculated that it was so far into
the stretch that drivers would have been exceeding the speed
limit anyway before they reached it (the stretch is enforced by
an average speed camera system).
So I don't see that you have any defence.
Neither this latest offence nor your earlier 25 in a 20 should
go near a court. You should be offered a fixed penalty (£100 and
three points) for each.
#Post#: 19025--------------------------------------------------
Re: Oh my God. I've just got another! speed "A20
Eastbound, West of Sandy Lane to East of Cookham Road"
DIR By: Donostio
Date: April 4, 2024, 10:18 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks, that is a helpful reply.
Obviously I'm concerned what 6 points is going to do to my car
insurance and my ability to hire cars.
Yeah, I have to accept that it's all lawful, but going eastbound
at least I did genuinely miss the 40 signs and have relied on
habit and Google maps too much.
It seems others have genuinely done so as well.
It doesn't seem fair these three tickets in 12 months. After 30
years of driving and my efforts to follow the speed limit
previously working fine.
Sometimes, Google maps previous experience/habit, and the nature
of the road all appear to be at odds with the actual limit. I
only go down there sporadically to Kent. And as you know, I've
been relying on Google maps far too much.
So I'm hearing that there's no point in pleading for leniency?
And I have to take 6 points and 200 quid.
#Post#: 19026--------------------------------------------------
Re: Oh my God. I've just got another! speed "A20
Eastbound, West of Sandy Lane to East of Cookham Road"
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: April 4, 2024, 10:37 am
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--- Quote from: Donostio link ---
>
> I'm not sure why you think I have intimated that I believe the
court would for some reason only considered one offence.
>
--- End Quote ---
If he didn’t, it would be harder for him to berate you whilst
‘helping’ you.
#Post#: 19028--------------------------------------------------
Re: Oh my God. I've just got another! speed "A20
Eastbound, West of Sandy Lane to East of Cookham Road"
DIR By: 666
Date: April 4, 2024, 12:15 pm
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--- Quote from: Donostio link ---
>
>
>
> So I'm hearing that there's no point in pleading for leniency?
And I have to take 6 points and 200 quid.
>
--- End Quote ---
Your 30-year clean licence is not mitigation. In any event, how
would you prove it?
For at least some (possibly most) of those 30 years you must
have managed OK without satnav, so you should be able to do so
again.
If you were to ignore the advice and go to court, it would cost
a lot more than £200.
#Post#: 19030--------------------------------------------------
Re: Oh my God. I've just got another! speed "A20
Eastbound, West of Sandy Lane to East of Cookham Road"
DIR By: slapdash
Date: April 4, 2024, 12:19 pm
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You said in one of your other threads you had done a course for
a 20mph offence some time ago.
Can you recall if it was a 20mph course? You may be able to find
out from your booking/completion documentation.
There used to be a 20mph course, a national course and a
motorway course. You could do one of each.
If it was a 20mph course then this offence may be eligible for a
course.
#Post#: 19032--------------------------------------------------
Re: Oh my God. I've just got another! speed "A20
Eastbound, West of Sandy Lane to East of Cookham Road"
DIR By: Donostio
Date: April 4, 2024, 12:43 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: slapdash link ---
>
> You said in one of your other threads you had done a course
for a 20mph offence some time ago.
>
> Can you recall if it was a 20mph course? You may be able to
find out from your booking/completion documentation.
>
> There used to be a 20mph course, a national course and a
motorway course. You could do one of each.
>
> If it was a 20mph course then this offence may be eligible for
a course.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, it was the 20mph course I did. I thought it was one chance
at a course of any type. Do you have information that I could
just get 3 points for the second 20 zone violation and do a
course for the first 40mph violation (and so avoid 6 points)?
#Post#: 19033--------------------------------------------------
Re: Oh my God. I've just got another! speed "A20
Eastbound, West of Sandy Lane to East of Cookham Road"
DIR By: Donostio
Date: April 4, 2024, 1:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: 666 link ---
>
>
>
>
> Your 30-year clean licence is not mitigation. In any event,
how would you prove it?
>
> For at least some (possibly most) of those 30 years you must
have managed OK without satnav, so you should be able to do so
again.
>
> If you were to ignore the advice and go to court, it would
cost a lot more than £200.
>
--- End Quote ---
1) How do I prove what? That I have a clean licence? I don't
foresee that being hard to do at all, do you? But as you have
suggested it's probably not germane anyway.
2) Yes I have driven without Sat Nav in the past. What is your
point? I will still rely on Sat Nav for navigation. If anything
I will turn off the speed limit advice entirely so I 100% use
signage and my highway code knowledge. Have you somehow got the
impression that I have argued that I must rely on a Sat Nav for
the speed limit? That is curious.
3) Why are you suggesting that I would ignore the advice of
those with experience and knowledge on this site? In my last
post I have literally summarised back the that advice that I
have got and will be following. I came here to check if there
was any value / merit in either questioning the A20 charge or
asking for leniency. And I got the answer I needed - even if
it's not the answer one might have hoped for.
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