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#Post#: 18829--------------------------------------------------
Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
DIR By: towedaway26
Date: April 1, 2024, 3:06 pm
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Someone kindly recommended I cross-post this from PePiPoo, so
apologies if it's a duplication for anyone - the thread there is
HTML http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=153769
We visited family in Walthamstow last weekend (22nd-24th March)
and, arriving in the dark late on Friday night, completely
missed the sign about parking being suspended in a few bays on
the street to allow access for a removal van the following day.
When we went out the next morning our car was gone, and two
others parked in the same row had PCNs and tow warning signs on
them - I assume it was our bad luck that they took our car first
and then came back for the others, or we might have got there in
time to just have the PCN. I completely accept that I was parked
in a suspended bay, but I feel the signage alerting to the
suspension was inadequate given that it was a massive change
from the norm for that street. Do I have grounds to contest the
PCN/towing based on that? It came to a total of £265 (£65 for
the PCN, £200 for the tow), so not small change!
GSV link to the spot in question:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/4w5NJBa3TNTz2pfp7
I was parked pretty much where the black car in this link is,
there was another car behind me (to the right of the picture,
where the white car is on street view) that was still within the
bay. The suspension sign was attached to the lamppost that's
behind the white car, so outside numbers 18/20. Walking up and
down the street in daylight I didn't see any other notices about
the parking suspension, though I have no photographic evidence
of this.
Here are (hopefully!) photos of the sign, and the paperwork from
Waltham council.
HTML https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/142/PTAn2w.jpg
HTML https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/4729/B2hzSg.jpg
HTML https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/664/oTT7KS.jpg
HTML https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/1968/37mPzK.jpg
HTML https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/4033/0uQhd6.jpg
HTML https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6378/sa79Kv.jpg
HTML https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/7423/9xXDY7.jpg
HTML https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5831/Wngcny.jpg
Thanks for reading, and for any advice!
#Post#: 18831--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: April 1, 2024, 3:50 pm
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Well let's start by turning the PCN the right way round:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/4qsEEC4.png
Unfortunately there was a sign right behind your car:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/rum0k2r.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/M7jfbUT.png
Was there one here?
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/GRAjCrpgsbd8tB32A
Obviously you've paid all there is to pay, so there's nothing to
be lost in taking this all the way to the tribunal.
I will also get hold of the suspension logs.
#Post#: 18836--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
DIR By: towedaway26
Date: April 1, 2024, 4:31 pm
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Thank you, sorry, still getting to grips with image uploading.
I don't have any photo evidence as it didn't occur to me at the
time, but I walked up and down the street several times in the
daylight the following day and did not see a second sign outside
number 32 - and I was looking by that point! Believe me I've
kicked myself repeatedly for not noticing the one behind the car
(the angled photo in daylight makes it look especially bad!).
It's a poor excuse I know, but we arrived in the dark after a 3
hour drive and, having parked on the street many times before I
know the permit schedule so didn't specifically look at the
signs. Not a mistake I'll ever make again, if nothing else.
#Post#: 18838--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: April 1, 2024, 5:30 pm
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We'll get evidence of where the signs were put in the first
first place, so don't worry too much about that.
In which direction did you walk after you got out of the car?
#Post#: 18842--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: April 1, 2024, 6:59 pm
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Being towed and having to pay a rather large sum at the pound to
get the car back is one of those situations where it is a total
no-brainer to appeal the matter all the way, because you've paid
all there is to pay, so you are tryng to get it all back. The
tow does seem disproportionate, but I think you'll struggle with
the PCN, but hey, lets see what happens at London Tribunals.
You're in good hands here BTW.
#Post#: 18864--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
DIR By: towedaway26
Date: April 2, 2024, 11:40 am
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--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> In which direction did you walk after you got out of the car?
>
--- End Quote ---
Around the front to unload stuff from the passanger side, and
then down the road towards the A112 end, rejoining the pavement
after the planters that mark the no entry one-way stretch - so I
did pass the lamppost with the sign on, albeit with parked cars
between it and me.
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> Being towed and having to pay a rather large sum at the pound
to get the car back is one of those situations where it is a
total no-brainer to appeal the matter all the way, because
you've paid all there is to pay, so you are tryng to get it all
back. The tow does seem disproportionate, but I think you'll
struggle with the PCN, but hey, lets see what happens at London
Tribunals. You're in good hands here BTW.
>
--- End Quote ---
That was how I viewed it, it's a nothing to lose but time sort
of situation, but I've never persued an appeals process like
this before. Getting the tow back but not the PCN would still
count as a massive win in my book! My gripe with what I perceive
to be poor signage was in part based on my home council area
who generlly mark parking suspensions with cones as well as
multiple signs, but I realise now that is them being thorough
rather than a requirement. If the signage is deemed adequate
then I won't begrudge the PCN fee as I was, after all, parked
where I shouldn't have been.
#Post#: 18880--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: April 2, 2024, 6:02 pm
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The grounds of appeal you've been given are incorrect, the 15 vs
30 minute period information was changed in May 2023 so there is
only a 15 minute period now, there are also other minor issues
with the grounds information.
The deadline for representations is 19 April so let's not rush
but let's also make sure not to miss that. If I get the
suspensions back in time I'll post them up the day I get them.
Did you look for any signs or did you just assume it would be OK
to park?
#Post#: 18898--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
DIR By: towedaway26
Date: April 3, 2024, 5:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> Did you look for any signs or did you just assume it would be
OK to park?
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, I looked to check I'd put the correct start time on the
permit - they're the sort where you scratch off the start time
and date - but it was one on the opposite side of the road
slightly further down the street that I looked at this time, you
can just see it here:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/bLMDvSSAN7EQ8rj59
#Post#: 18941--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: April 3, 2024, 12:10 pm
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Legally only the signs for the particular bay count, signs on
the other side of the road or for a different bay on the same
side of the road don't count, you know for next time.
Here's something you can use if we don't get the suspension logs
back before the deadline:
[indent]
Dear London Borough of Waltham Forest,
I would like to challenge liability for PCN FR61970085 because
the alleged contravention did not occur. It appears not all
signs within the vicinity of my vehicle were carrying a parking
suspension sign, and I believe this partly contributed to the
fact that I missed the suspension.
Furthermore I contend there has been a procedural impropriety,
as the information sheet I was given does not correctly reflect
the provisions of The Removal and Disposal of Vehicles
Regulations 1986 as amended by The Civil Enforcement of Moving
Traffic Contraventions Designations and Miscellaneous Amendments
Order 2022, which in turn is a failure to comply with regulation
11(2)(a) of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions
(Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022.
In light of the above the penalty charge must be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,
[/indent]
#Post#: 19022--------------------------------------------------
Re: Waltham Forest, suspended parking bay, PCN/towing
DIR By: towedaway26
Date: April 4, 2024, 10:08 am
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Thanks, should I send that now or give it a bit longer? And is
it worth adding in something about the fact that the car was
taken to the pound rather than moved to another space on the
street that it had a valid permit for?
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