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#Post#: 18666--------------------------------------------------
Newham 12 - Parked in shared usage bay without valid permit,
Albert Road North Woolwich
DIR By: ticketed_off
Date: March 31, 2024, 11:29 am
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Good afternoon, and Happy Easter from me and in particular,
Newham Council >:( :( .
I had been under the impression that Newham Council did not
enforce resident parking restrictions on Easter Sunday as this
was a Public Holiday. I have learned a lesson, via PCN, that
Easter Sunday itself (unlike the Friday and Monday) is not a PH.
I am not sure whether there may be any route to 'appeal' here,
or not. I returned to my vehicle parked in a shared usage
Resident CPZ/PaybyPhone bay at 11:45AM to find the PCN. As I sat
reading it, I was passed by a slightly disappointed looking
towtruck driver who slowed down as he passed my vehicle and had
presumably been sent to remove my vehicle.
If Newham were a more reasonable borough on parking then I would
consider an informal representation on the grounds of genuine
error (and pointing to my track record of paying for permit
parking in this area when required) but given their hardline
stance on vehicle removals (they routinely remove vehicles
within 30m of a contravention), I am not sure if there is any
point.
I previously had my vehicle removed in the same CPZ when a CEO
keyed in my number wrongly (I had a valid visitor's permit). I
caused a fair amount of fuss about this at the time and received
a settlement, so if there is any element of human discretion
applied I am not clear whether that might count against me now
there was a bona fide case.
My only other immediate thought is that there is no 'bay'
marking for the CPZ but I am unsure if this is legally required?
Thanks very much in advance for any suggestions.
Please see below the PCN:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/vEaKNx0.jpeg
The images taken by the CEO are here:
HTML https://imgur.com/a/Vf7QUKk
The location is here:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/u5FYbGsxCMWwDFfm8
#Post#: 18668--------------------------------------------------
Re: Newham 12 - Parked in shared usage bay without valid permit,
Albert Road North Woolwich
DIR By: ManxTom
Date: March 31, 2024, 12:48 pm
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You might not consider this very helpful, but I would presume
that the restriction was 24/7, 365 days a year unless the
signage specifically indicated otherwise.
I'm also surprised that you say the council treat Good Friday
and Easter Monday as "Bank Holidays" but not Easter Sunday. I'm
surprised because all my local supermarkets are open on Friday
and on Monday, but not on Sunday.
Is this a thing in Newham? (Or in London generally. I don't
live in London...)
#Post#: 18669--------------------------------------------------
Re: Newham 12 - Parked in shared usage bay without valid permit,
Albert Road North Woolwich
DIR By: ticketed_off
Date: March 31, 2024, 12:54 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks - yes it's odd, and counter-intuitive.
This page
HTML https://www.newham.gov.uk/parking-permits/parking-newham/7#
sets
out Newham's approach to parking on "Public and Bank Holidays".
In many (most?) London Boroughs Resident only Parking is
suspended during Bank Holidays. I had, foolishly, assumed Easter
Sunday would count, but it doesn't.
Newham don't define what they mean by Public and Bank Holiday
but
HTML https://www.gov.uk/bank-holidays
doesn't show Easter. The
hours of the bay are 8.00am - 6.30pm Mon-Sun so I was relying on
the fact that Easter was a Bank/Public holiday to park.
The legalities aside, I think the fact that they were presumably
about to tow my vehicle for this matter (as opposed to teaching
me a £65 lesson on what does and doesn't count as a Bank
Holiday) given there was plenty of parking elsewhere and I was
not causing an obstruction is grotesque, but probably a matter
for me to complain to local councillors about, and not really
one for reps. I suppose it may help them look unreasonable at
Tribunal.
My 'cigarette packet argument' is that this was a genuine error
on my part compounded by the fact that the lack of bay markings
(I believe they may be extremely, extremely faded) makes it
questionable whether this matter should have been enforced
anyway. But I am unclear whether at law the white bay markings
are required for a Controlled Parking Zone, and have found some
conflicting advice on this and the old forum.
#Post#: 18720--------------------------------------------------
Re: Newham 12 - Parked in shared usage bay without valid permit,
Albert Road North Woolwich
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: March 31, 2024, 6:41 pm
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This is an absolutely disgraceful PCN; the bay markings are
totally absent ! If you had parked at the other end, after the
"Scarab" truck in your GSV view, why would you think you need to
go and see a bay restriction sign when there is no bay !! There
is, if a motorist parks in a marked bay, a duty on him to
establish what restrictions there might be for that bay, and
hence go and look for the sign. But here there is no marked bay.
Of course there were markings there in 2019
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/bmHXjxq8Q33BxgPc9
but they've all disappeared now.
I would say this has to be a clear win at London Tribunals.
#Post#: 18745--------------------------------------------------
Re: Newham 12 - Parked in shared usage bay without valid permit,
Albert Road North Woolwich
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: March 31, 2024, 8:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I agree with Incandescent, there is no prima-facie evidence of a
contravention:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/q33MhpT.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/3VLbdmF.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/x860lRA.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/1RCMvrW.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/adSjy14.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/8iS8NHq.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/agm8eba.jpeg
As long as the case is argued properly it's hard to see how you
could possibly lose this.
Draft up an informal representation and post it on here for
review please, in the meantime I'll get hold of the traffic
order.
#Post#: 18768--------------------------------------------------
Re: Newham 12 - Parked in shared usage bay without valid permit,
Albert Road North Woolwich
DIR By: ticketed_off
Date: April 1, 2024, 6:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks both for your responses. How's the below - edits are to
prevent this being indexed on Google but the full details remain
in the images. The sections in lime green are optional and don't
add to making the key point (as well as open up an angle of CEO
incompetence/malpractice) so I don't know if that would be
helpful or a hindrance in terms of maximising the chances of an
early disposal?
Grateful for any thoughts.
--- Quote ---
> Dear Sir/Madam,
>
> I write with reference to PCN**** issued to my vehicle ******
on Albert Road on 31 March, 2023. I wish to make representations
regarding this PCN, which are set out below.
>
> I parked in the location specified because I had been of the
understanding that Easter Sunday is a Public Holiday, and that
therefore, permit and shared use bays within Controlled Parking
Zones are not enforced. I now understand this not to be the
case. Regardless, my first representation is the fact that
enforcement continues on Easter Sunday is not clear from your
website, which does not make clear what is defined as a Bank
holiday and Public holiday (GOV.UK only lists Bank Holidays -
your additional reference to un-referenced Public Holidays
therefore creates ambiguity). Given this was a genuine mistake,
I would like you to consider cancelling the PCN as a gesture of
goodwill and mutual understanding.
>
> Having looked into this matter in more detail, I wish to make
a second representation, which is that in the event, I do not
believe that Newham Council is able to properly enforce the
purported parking controls at the specific location in question.
From review of your CEO's evidence, there is no visible white
bay marking where the vehicle is parked, and the impression
could therefore be given that a controlled parking bay does not
exist at that location. Given the absence of the required
markings, I do not consider that Residents Parking controls
should have been subject to enforcement at this location. This
inadequate marking must have been clear to your CEO who
proceeded to issue the PCN regardless. I consider the PCN is not
enforceable and therefore your CEO could not, if they were
acting properly, have had reasonable cause to believe a PCN was
payable given the clearly defective road markings.
>
> I would ask that my representations are reviewed and that the
PCN is cancelled as it was issued as a result of genuine error
on my part, and ultimately, it also does not seem to be legally
enforceable.
>
--- End Quote ---
I have no experience of these tribunals but am a seasoned
letter-writer/complainer (including against said Council
previously!) so am happy to pursue this one if there is a good
prospect of success - all of this advice is much appreciated. I
am not sure (and am unable to gather from reading other threads)
whether it is likely to help or hinder if I volunteer that I
thought controls did not apply on that day (which is why I
parked) or whether I should say less and more narrowly build the
argument on the lines not being properly in place.
#Post#: 18773--------------------------------------------------
Re: Newham 12 - Parked in shared usage bay without valid permit,
Albert Road North Woolwich
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: April 1, 2024, 7:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
You're making the mistake of thinking that someone from the
council with at least an average IQ is going to sit down and
give your representations proper consideration, that is not the
case. Virtually all informal representations result in a fob-off
letter and your representations will likely only be skim-read,
if read at all.
I would also avoid making any self-incriminating statements or
admissions, here's what I would suggest:
[indent]
Dear London Borough of Newham,
Having viewed the photos taken by the civil enforcement officer
I cannot see any prima-facie evidence of any contravention, so
it would appear the PCN must have been issued in error. I trust
you will arrange for its prompt cancellation.
Yours faithfully
[/indent]
Of course they'll reject, but we want to put the burden on them
of spelling out why they think a penalty is payable.
#Post#: 18776--------------------------------------------------
Re: Newham 12 - Parked in shared usage bay without valid permit,
Albert Road North Woolwich
DIR By: ticketed_off
Date: April 1, 2024, 7:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks, fair enough! :)
I presume there is no point in waiting any longer to send
informal reps if I have no intention of ultimately paying at
this stage?
I'm likely to move house within the next 6 months so I'd rather
any NtO came sooner rather than later.
#Post#: 18778--------------------------------------------------
Re: Newham 12 - Parked in shared usage bay without valid permit,
Albert Road North Woolwich
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: April 1, 2024, 7:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I hope you have no intention of ultimately paying at any stage!
Yes you might as well get the representations sent off now.
#Post#: 18800--------------------------------------------------
Re: Newham 12 - Parked in shared usage bay without valid permit,
Albert Road North Woolwich
DIR By: ticketed_off
Date: April 1, 2024, 10:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Well, I don't have any intention of paying at any stage from
what I have seen of their case so far!
One point before I send:
The fact they will probably not read my informal representations
aside, on reflection I'd be more comfortable being a little more
direct that my argument is rooted in the lack of the required
road markings, vs leaving that for them to figure out. If this
goes to Tribunal and I win, I don't just want to leave it at
that - I'd like to lobby Councillors on Newham's gung-ho
attitude to parking enforcement in the neighbourhood. I think
that is more effective if I showed I engaged positively and
tried to shut the matter down early (vs just put them to proof)
and this was ignored. As a matter of personal style I also think
this makes me look more reasonable in front of an Adjudicator
and vice versa, Newham less so.
There is also part of me that would rather the PCN went away
(even if a Tribunal victory would be enjoyable, I'd obviously
prefer to avoid the case progressing any further if possible)
and it seems that unless they are genuinely not reading any of
the informal representations that there is still some slightly
increased chance (even if this is still highly unlikely) that
the below might lead someone to see sense.
What about:
--- Quote ---
> Dear London Borough of Newham,
>
> Having viewed the photos taken by the civil enforcement
officer I do not believe that you can evidence a contravention,
as there are no road markings shown indicating parking controls
on the point the vehicle is stopped. It would appear the PCN
must have been issued in error. I trust you will arrange for its
prompt cancellation.
>
> Yours faithfully
--- End Quote ---
Ultimately though, defeating the PCN is obviously more important
to me than the ability to complain about Newham's policies
through local politics or seeming like a 'reasonable guy'. Would
my latest proposed representation be likely to reduce my
chances/options at Adjudication? If so I'll go with what's you
proposed cp8759.
Thanks again for the advice to me and so many others on this
forum which is highly appreciated.
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