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#Post#: 18203--------------------------------------------------
URGENT! PLS Box Junction code 31 Emerging and stopping in a box
junction when prohibited, Wandsworth High St/Buckhold Rd
DIR By: Seaside
Date: March 24, 2024, 2:26 pm
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Good evening,
may I please have some help with the PCN issued. I am quite
desperate as I believe tomorrow is the last day that I can make
a representation to the London Tribunal.
I received a PCN on 23.01 and I contested it because I have
found information on the web in regards to similar circumstances
as mine. I was driving in the moving traffic and further down
the car from the right turn lane indicated to move over to the
left just before turning right. That caused all the traffic in
my lane to stop briefly and I was caught in the box junction for
7 seconds.
I appealed on 08.02 on the basis that when I entered the box
junction the traffic was moving and I had no reason to stop
before entering the box junction and that I was a part of moving
traffic which was halted due to vehicle changing lanes.
I did not hear anything back and there was no contact email in
the email confirmation of my appeal, so I had to contact the TFL
via the help email provided on their website to inform them I
had no correspondence yet. (This was about 3-4 weeks after not
receiving anything.) I have been battling a cold for 4 weeks and
I was not on top of most things.
I heard back from them on the 14.03 with an attachment informing
me that the Notice of Rejection was issued on the 26.02 and that
I ought to pay £160 fine. I emailed them back and asked for the
original Notice of Rejection and I stated the fact I should have
14 days to pay the discounted rate of £80. They emailed me back
on the 15.03 with an original Notice of Rejection but made no
mention of the discounted rate.
I went on the website tonight and the PCN is stated as £160 so I
emailed them back again to enquire about the 14 days period
since the receipt of the Notice of Rejection via email.
Ideally I would like to appeal to the London Tribunals as I
could not have anticipated what will happen further down the
road. If you don't think I have a case I would very much
appreciate the advice on how to obtain the possibility to pay a
discounted fee since I have not received the Notice of Rejection
until 15.03.
I tried to look on the TFL website for the video but did not
know how to find it as I have never done this before. It also
took me ages to work out Imgur and how to make a new post on
here.
Thank you very much for your time!
HTML https://i.imgur.com/KuHxOsI.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/MG1Jzu4.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/tmHZIcx.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/Fiu2HsM.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/E6edg4y.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/2n6rDGm.jpeg
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/DDPDhTMiTYg73WVf9
#Post#: 18215--------------------------------------------------
Re: URGENT! PLS Box Junction code 31 Emerging and stopping in a
box junction when prohibited, Wandsworth High St/Buckhol
DIR By: MrChips
Date: March 24, 2024, 3:58 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
You have a little more time than you think (but only a little).
Presumed date of service of the notice of rejection was 28
February (2 business days after posting). That gives a deadline
to appeal of 26 March, i.e. Tuesday.
If TFL won't accept the discounted rate then there is no
financial incentive not to appeal. You will need to get the
video asap which TFL only offer via posted DVD if you call up to
all for it.
Wait for help from others but you might be best served making a
skeleton appeal to London tribunals and beefing it up later when
you have the video.
#Post#: 18217--------------------------------------------------
Re: URGENT! PLS Box Junction code 31 Emerging and stopping in a
box junction when prohibited, Wandsworth High St/Buckhol
DIR By: Seaside
Date: March 24, 2024, 4:06 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you so much for your reply. I found a viewmypcn.co.uk
website but it says my PCN is not found. Do you mean I have to
make a phone call and ask for the video please?
I am travelling on Thursday evening for Easter holidays and I
will not be here when the DVD arrives. Do you know if there is
another way to obtain a copy of the video?
Many thanks for your reply once again.
#Post#: 18218--------------------------------------------------
Re: URGENT! PLS Box Junction code 31 Emerging and stopping in a
box junction when prohibited, Wandsworth High St/Buckhol
DIR By: MrChips
Date: March 24, 2024, 4:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
How long will you be away for? TFL usually take several days
(1-2 weeks) to get it to you in the post. Any tribunal date is
likely to be long after this so it's not an immediate concern.
You will have to lodge your appeal before you see it. The
photos don't look promising but the video is the proper
evidence.
You need to ring them tomorrow morning to request it. It's not
available online.
#Post#: 18220--------------------------------------------------
Re: URGENT! PLS Box Junction code 31 Emerging and stopping in a
box junction when prohibited, Wandsworth High St/Buckhol
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: March 24, 2024, 4:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Your complicating factor is that you haven't seen the video -
just read the PCN for how to obtain this, it's perfectly
straightforward but needs you to request a copy from TfL. And
this is where you are exposed because if you go beyond 26th
March then you would miss the statutory deadline for registering
an appeal. You should NOT be placed in jeopardy simply because
you did not receive the NOR in time. TfL have written to you
stating that they will only accept the full penalty.
In my opinion you should ignore the NOR dated 26 Feb.
You have the right to register an appeal within the 28-day
period beginning when the NOR is presumed served i.e. the 28
Feb. It is not your task to panic and rush around within what is
now a severely truncated period AND you should be entitled to
pay the discount as you would have been had the NOR arrived in
time.
The Tribunal will take the 28th Feb. as the presumed date of
service, not when TfL sent you a copy.
The procedural play is to wait for the Charge Cert and then the
Order for Recovery and then submit a statutory declaration to
get the matter referred to the adjudicator by TfL, NOT you.
The alternative would be to play TfL's game, register an
ill-researched appeal before 26th with nothing more than relying
on your formal reps; once notified of optional appeal hearing
dates select one which is sufficiently ahead so that you could
request and receive a copy of the CCTV record in sufficient time
to allow you to view; gauge opinion and, if necessary, submit
further representations to the adjudicator prior to your
hearing.
See what others think.
#Post#: 18221--------------------------------------------------
Re: URGENT! PLS Box Junction code 31 Emerging and stopping in a
box junction when prohibited, Wandsworth High St/Buckhol
DIR By: Seaside
Date: March 24, 2024, 5:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: MrChips link ---
>
> How long will you be away for? TFL usually take several days
(1-2 weeks) to get it to you in the post. Any tribunal date is
likely to be long after this so it's not an immediate concern.
You will have to lodge your appeal before you see it. The
photos don't look promising but the video is the proper
evidence.
>
> You need to ring them tomorrow morning to request it. It's
not available online.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you very much for the reply. I come back on the 17.04. Are
you able to offer any advice on correct legal vocabulary to be
used please?
I found this extract online about entering box junction in
moving traffic. It includes the case where review states the
person could not have predicted what will happen on the road
ahead. what are your thoughts on this please?
Quote
"
If, once you have entered the box, somebody takes your lane
thereby causing you to have to stop within the box then you have
grounds for appeal.
You cannot be expected to take account of another driver doing
something which you cannot anticipate (or even see as in Orgil
below).
See Orgil v LB Barnet London Tribunals case reference
2160413115.
Adjudicators decisions are not binding but Orgil follows that of
Essoo v LB Barnet where the original decision to refuse was
overtuned on review.
The key question is was what happened predictable?
Review said said:
In our view the Regulation, describing as it does a consequence
that a vehicle has to stop in the box due to the presence of
stationary vehicles, does not thereby impose a necessity upon a
driver that he must wait outside the box to see if traffic ahead
will become stationary before he decides to enter. The traffic
may still be moving when s/he enters and yet a contravention
still occur if the traffic stops thereafter. This is the
driver’s risk in the judgment s/he exercises unless, as in Mr
Essoo’s case, the driver could not have predicted the reason for
the stopping of the vehicles ahead.
We have had regard to the relevant paragraph advising motorists
in the Highway Code. The warning is “ You must not enter the box
until your exit road or lane is clear.” However we are of the
view that this steps rather beyond what is required by the
Regulation. A driver may exercise a prediction in his judgment
as to whether the exit space will be clear. He is not to blame
if the exit is thereafter blocked by an unexpected event such as
the intervening action of another vehicle cutting into his right
of way without warning.
"
Unqote
#Post#: 18222--------------------------------------------------
Re: URGENT! PLS Box Junction code 31 Emerging and stopping in a
box junction when prohibited, Wandsworth High St/Buckhol
DIR By: Seaside
Date: March 24, 2024, 5:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> Your complicating factor is that you haven't seen the video -
just read the PCN for how to obtain this, it's perfectly
straightforward but needs you to request a copy from TfL. And
this is where you are exposed because if you go beyond 26th
March then you would miss the statutory deadline for registering
an appeal. You should NOT be placed in jeopardy simply because
you did not receive the NOR in time. TfL have written to you
stating that they will only accept the full penalty.
>
> In my opinion you should ignore the NOR dated 26 Feb.
>
> You have the right to register an appeal within the 28-day
period beginning when the NOR is presumed served i.e. the 28
Feb. It is not your task to panic and rush around within what is
now a severely truncated period AND you should be entitled to
pay the discount as you would have been had the NOR arrived in
time.
>
> The Tribunal will take the 28th Feb. as the presumed date of
service, not when TfL sent you a copy.
>
> The procedural play is to wait for the Charge Cert and then
the Order for Recovery and then submit a statutory declaration
to get the matter referred to the adjudicator by TfL, NOT you.
>
> The alternative would be to play TfL's game, register an
ill-researched appeal before 26th with nothing more than relying
on your formal reps; once notified of optional appeal hearing
dates select one which is sufficiently ahead so that you could
request and receive a copy of the CCTV record in sufficient time
to allow you to view; gauge opinion and, if necessary, submit
further representations to the adjudicator prior to your
hearing.
>
> See what others think.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you very much for the reply. I do not know what happens in
these situations as I have never been in one before. What is the
Charge Cert and the Order for Recovery please?
Do you think the Tribunal will take into the account the fact I
have not received the NOR and once I enquired about the outcome
I got served the maximum amount?
Are you able to offer your opinion on the reply I have put on a
post above regarding the outcome of the same situation on
entering the box junction please?
Many thanks once again.
#Post#: 18223--------------------------------------------------
Re: URGENT! PLS Box Junction code 31 Emerging and stopping in a
box junction when prohibited, Wandsworth High St/Buckhol
DIR By: Seaside
Date: March 24, 2024, 5:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I just read all 6 pages of the PCN again but I can't find the
information on how to obtain the video. Are you able to point me
in the right direction of where it is please?
#Post#: 18226--------------------------------------------------
Re: URGENT! PLS Box Junction code 31 Emerging and stopping in a
box junction when prohibited, Wandsworth High St/Buckhol
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: March 24, 2024, 6:58 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Seaside link ---
>
> Thank you so much for your reply. I found a viewmypcn.co.uk
website but it says my PCN is not found. Do you mean I have to
make a phone call and ask for the video please?
> I am travelling on Thursday evening for Easter holidays and I
will not be here when the DVD arrives. Do you know if there is
another way to obtain a copy of the video?
> Many thanks for your reply once again.
>
--- End Quote ---
TfL are in the dark ages, and do not put their videos on the
above website; you have to phone them and ask for the video
which is sent by DVD. Yes, it is a PITA, but unlikely to change
soon.
#Post#: 18230--------------------------------------------------
Re: URGENT! PLS Box Junction code 31 Emerging and stopping in a
box junction when prohibited, Wandsworth High St/Buckhol
DIR By: taffer87
Date: March 25, 2024, 2:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
would recommend just submitting a simple appeal to tribunal to
say you rely on formal representations and will provide further
evidence on review of council evidence bundle including video
and also that you did not receive the notice of rejection
tribunal appeals can be rescheduled etc and you are going to get
an appeal date in May now (which can get rescheduled for no
reason) so no point delaying the whole thing unless you want
this hanging over for months
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