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#Post#: 18219--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Croydon, Holmesdale Road - 52J Failing to comply with a
Prohibition on Certain Types of Vehicle
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: March 24, 2024, 4:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Clearly, I need to go to specsavers. Even when I augment the PCN
all I see is somehting like this: :o
#Post#: 18232--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Croydon, Holmesdale Road - 52J Failing to comply with a
Prohibition on Certain Types of Vehicle
DIR By: guest17
Date: March 25, 2024, 3:06 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The OP's photo shows there is no road closure at the end of
Holmesdale Road so this needs investigating since the Notice
indicates:-
(a) To introduce a permanent closure to all motor vehicles (with
the exception of the emergency services) at the common boundary
of Nos. 236 and 238 Holmesdale Road, adjacent to its junction
with the south-western kerb-line of Park Road, marked by
lockable bollards.
The signage in the video is in the correct location:-
(iii) Holmesdale Road opposite the south-western flank wall of
No. 371 (closure point opposite the flank wall).
It's an Experimental Order which possibly expired last Friday so
I wonder if this little scheme is ongoing. In other words if the
traffic management reason for the restriction has lapsed why is
enforcement continuing?
Hippo's point on the suffix is valid with a proviso. There is a
supplement to the PCN Codes notes which states "Suffix ‘j’
identifies a contravention that can be used on highways other
than red routes using CCTV. The suffix itself is not required on
a PCN". Perhaps this provides the Council with wriggle room.
Mike
#Post#: 18247--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Croydon, Holmesdale Road - 52J Failing to comply with a
Prohibition on Certain Types of Vehicle
DIR By: RS123
Date: March 25, 2024, 7:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you everyone for your comments.
Apologies for my ignorance but is the upshot that I could make
reps of the basis that:
1) The evidence they have provided doesn't show the signage that
I should have seen
2) The 'certain types of vehicle' on the PCN isn't specific
enough
Also would I be making reps of any kind under the assumption
that they will be rejected by the council but this buys me time
to get the TMO and build a stronger case for possibly going to
the independent adjudicator?
#Post#: 18248--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Croydon, Holmesdale Road - 52J Failing to comply with a
Prohibition on Certain Types of Vehicle
DIR By: taffer87
Date: March 25, 2024, 8:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: RS123 link ---
>
> Links to photos and videos below:
>
> PCN Cover Page
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hbaTy9Lk5SD2H8RRgJ0m23UE9vAQAVtx/view?usp=drive_link
>
> Council Photo 1
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EZAtnIamnlr1Bd-ya9aGJsSWGsyYqEtb/view?usp=drive_link
>
> Council Photo 2
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ka3atSnyVArUfT6SxwnEMB-TTAwRCJTC/view?usp=drive_link
>
> Council Video Footage
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-nxnnD7T3Yb7WgvZFJ4eOduhxyE8OmS3/view?usp=drive_link
>
> Signage
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/14bUUm2O-CawfqUiEMDDpIpinJz3dU_gV/view?usp=drive_link
>
> Warning Signage at Entrance to Road
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1u3XmhQcCxAdYN7b6xXhK_aLT_sYpCoeG/view?usp=drive_link
>
> Hopefully this is everything that is needed to see if there
are any flaws. If anyone can spot any grounds for reps, please
advise.
>
>
> My Own POV (not that it will count for much in this appeals
process):
>
> I appreciate that I approached the regulatory signs and
continued driving therefore my fault.
>
> However, my query is: aren't prohibited zones typically a
whole road or at least a significant section of road, as opposed
to a small red box (dimensions: approx 1m x width of road) which
you can approach from both ends of the road but cannot
cross/enter?
>
> Given that the regulatory prohibition signs are roughly 60% of
the way down this stretch of road, one is not expecting to drive
down here and suddenly reach a threshold (red box) that one is
not permitted to cross. Would drivers who were unfamiliar with
the CHN but saw the signs be expected to respond by stopping and
performing a 3 point turn in the middle of the road (even more
so during busy times)?
>
--- End Quote ---
they would have missed a clear advance warning sign as a well as
a dead end sign well before the illuminated prohibition signs
--- really going to struggle with this at the tribunal
IF there are technical faults with the wording (or other
technical faults) then you should continue to an appeal
otherwise if discount is still available (?) then that may be
the best option
I can see others have pointed out technical issues already
#Post#: 18249--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Croydon, Holmesdale Road - 52J Failing to comply with a
Prohibition on Certain Types of Vehicle
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: March 25, 2024, 8:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Given that the regulatory prohibition signs are roughly 60% of
the way down this stretch of road, one is not expecting to drive
down here and suddenly reach a threshold (red box) that one is
not permitted to cross.
The advance warning signs notify drivers of the restriction
ahead which should be marked by gateway signs of the type seen
in the PCN. Passing these (and thereby travelling along the
length of road beyond when not permitted) is the contravention.
Why they're there are what they mark e.g. red box, school,
hedgehog crossing point etc. is immaterial I'm afraid.
Would drivers who were unfamiliar with the CHN but saw the signs
be expected to respond by stopping and performing a 3 point turn
in the middle of the road (even more so during busy times)?
How they avoid being in contravention is their choice, but it is
not an excuse/reason/defence to claim one had to contravene
because in the driver's opinion the alternatives were too horrid
contemplate.
IMO, there are issues which you could put to the authority in
reps hoping that their rejection - and let's be honest, it would
be- would present you with a cast-iron procedural collateral
challenge. But do not mistake matters which you could put in
formal reps (at virtually no risk) with arguments which you'd be
happy to put with confidence to an adjudicator knowing that the
full penalty was in play.
#Post#: 18380--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Croydon, Holmesdale Road - 52J Failing to comply with a
Prohibition on Certain Types of Vehicle
DIR By: guest17
Date: March 26, 2024, 1:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
OP-----
The video shows, you are not leaving a restricted area but
entering one at 371 Holmedale Road. The signpost has
restrictions on both sides because it is an entry/egress
prohibition.
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3996017,-0.0789027,3a,41y,57.71h,80.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3RDJXFu_OLVROiFCFf-C1A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Ergo I doubt you entered the restriction at Oliver Grove because
you are heading in the direction of Oliver Grove.
However Oliver Grove was blocked off:-
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3996017,-0.0789027,3a,41y,57.71h,80.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3RDJXFu_OLVROiFCFf-C1A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/@51.3996017,-0.0789027,3a,75y,246.33h,70.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3RDJXFu_OLVROiFCFf-C1A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
But in your photo of the signage it isn't! That's why you were
not given a 2nd PCN coming back through the signage. The Order
spcifies entry and egress prohibitions. You exited via Oliver
Grove (no bollards or planters).
So the signage doesn't indicate the entry to a "zone" and the
traffic management reasons given in the Order are defunct
i.e.the “Croydon Healthy Neighbourhood”.
You have at least 3 grounds for an appeal:-
1) No advance warning signs as noted by hca;
2) No protected zone--the prohibition signage has no purpose if
the traffic management reasons of the Order have lapsed;
3) The suffix issue which renders the PCN null and void.
Mike
#Post#: 18383--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Croydon, Holmesdale Road - 52J Failing to comply with a
Prohibition on Certain Types of Vehicle
DIR By: Neil B
Date: March 26, 2024, 2:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Mick.
He has already said he now has two pcns. I suspect the other is
for Upper Grove cos a mate of mine has those two as well.
The alternative route available, to reach addresses within the
LTN, appears to be Whitworth Road, looking at the area map.
It's typical of other LTNs with multiple restrictions creating
what is in effect a 'zone', as you say, and with only one or two
ways without restriction.
But how can anyone know where the unrestricted roads are?
OP needs to submit representations online or by e-mail tomorrow
latest to preserve the discount.
#Post#: 18390--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Croydon, Holmesdale Road - 52J Failing to comply with a
Prohibition on Certain Types of Vehicle
DIR By: guest17
Date: March 26, 2024, 5:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi Neil,
The map:-
HTML https://www.croydon.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2022-08/Holmesdale-Road-Area-CHN-map.pdf
Which clearly demonstrates there is no requirement for the
prohibition sign the OP went through because its slap bang in
the middle of this LTN or whatever they wish to call it.
She would have gone through the access point at the junction of
Park Road and Holmesdale Road and that's where the signage
prohibits entry (according to the map). I cannot recall a single
LTN where there is a camera placed within the "zone" rather than
at an access or egress point. I would contend that "Failing to
comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle" can only
occur at an entry point.
Mike
#Post#: 18403--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Croydon, Holmesdale Road - 52J Failing to comply with a
Prohibition on Certain Types of Vehicle
DIR By: RS123
Date: March 26, 2024, 7:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi All
Thanks so much for taking the time to advise and comment.
I will be making reps today.
Just to clarify the route I took, I have annotated the attached
CHN image with a purple line/arrows: Route Driven
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KASJWBZqAn1CL8_v8x2FSTR0BNR7y9Ag/view?usp=drive_link
So whilst on South Norwood Hill, I turned right into Holmesdale
Road, went through the regulatory signs at 371 Holmesdale Road
and then turned left into Oliver Grove (as Mick said there are
no longer bollards present to prevent entry into Oliver Grove).
#Post#: 18404--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Croydon, Holmesdale Road - 52J Failing to comply with a
Prohibition on Certain Types of Vehicle
DIR By: RS123
Date: March 26, 2024, 7:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Neil B link ---
>
> The Gazette notice of what appears to be the relevant Order.
>
>
HTML https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/4166090
>
> Maybe I'm dumb (probably) but I can't see Oliver Road
mentioned?
> It's worth asking for the full traffic order at some point.
>
--- End Quote ---
[member=13]Neil B[/member] You're definitely not dumb, I clearly
am for ending up with two PCNs, a week apart on the same road,
albeit in different locations ::)
Yes I agree, the PCN Location refers to Oliver Grove, yet the
regulatory signs are not situated at/on/near Oliver Grove.
How do I request the full traffic order? Is there a particular
department I would need to contact within the council?
--- Quote from: Neil B link ---
>
> I suspect your other PCN was for Upper Grove? -- which IS
mentioned.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, you are correct, my other PCN, for which I will create a
separate thread, gives the Location as Holmesdale Road junction
of Upper Grove
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