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#Post#: 17925--------------------------------------------------
PCN Croydon, Holmesdale Road - 52J Failing to comply with a
Prohibition on Certain Types of Vehicle
DIR By: RS123
Date: March 21, 2024, 6:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi All
I received a PCN from Croydon: 52J Failing to comply with a
Prohibition on Certain Types of Vehicle at Holmesdale Road
junction of Oliver Grove.
PCN image
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hbaTy9Lk5SD2H8RRgJ0m23UE9vAQAVtx/view?usp=sharing
Date of alleged incident: 6th March 2024
Date of Notice: 14th March 2024
However this only came through the door on 20th March so doesn't
leave me much time to appeal within the 14 days to preserve the
discounted rate.
In all honesty, I was being given directions by a friend and
genuinely do not recall seeing any kind of sign. Naturally, I
don't plan to use this as grounds for appeal, as clearly that
wouldn't wash!
I just wondered if anyone knows of any grounds upon which I
could appeal particularly as I think we went down the same road
the following week, so I am fairly certain I will be receiving
another PCN in the next week! >:(
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
#Post#: 17977--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Croydon, Holmesdale Road - 52J Failing to comply with a
Prohibition on Certain Types of Vehicle
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: March 21, 2024, 1:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The video shows you passing a sign from the other side, so we
really need to see whether the signs in the video are also there
for traffic in the other direction. GSV is too out-of-date to
show the signs, so you need to do some legwork and take photos
of the back of the signs shown in the video. If none, then the
offence did not occur.
#Post#: 18122--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Croydon, Holmesdale Road - 52J Failing to comply with a
Prohibition on Certain Types of Vehicle
DIR By: RS123
Date: March 22, 2024, 6:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> The video shows you passing a sign from the other side, so we
really need to see whether the signs in the video are also there
for traffic in the other direction. GSV is too out-of-date to
show the signs, so you need to do some legwork and take photos
of the back of the signs shown in the video. If none, then the
offence did not occur.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you [member=12]Incandescent[/member].
Is there a way for me to view the council's video as I'm not
certain about which part of the road the letter refers to?
I visited Holmesdale Road today and got an impression of where I
think this took place (based on the proximity to Oliver Grove
and the double yellow lines in the image). However, I will be
going again tomorrow, as my friend disagrees as to where he
thinks this occurred. Plus the second dreaded PCN arrived today
(albeit on another part of Holmesdale Road) so I need to take
more photos!
For now, I won't post all the photos I took, in case I'm
incorrect about where this took place... but if it did occur
where I think it did, then this photo (View From Other Side
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1an8Fe5G5PkHbjoRDnYOb9LMPhn16_DGB/view?usp=drive_link)<br
/>shows the signage on the other side (as the double yellow
lines
appear to match the photo from the council). So, on that basis,
I can't argue that the signage wasn't visible.
However, are there any grounds for me to make reps? Below are my
initial thoughts - would any of these be worth trying?:
1) I don't understand how this Healthy Neighbourhood works.
Essentially you can enter the road from both ends, but have to
stop short of the 'painted red box' in the above photo. So in
order to not contravene the HN, you would have to perform a turn
in the road. Is that safe/legit?
2) The location is stated as Holmesdale Road junction Oliver
Grove by Oliver Grove but the actual 'red box' threshold is at
least 40 yards away from the junction with Oliver Grove, i.e.
firmly located on Holmesdale Road. Is the location description
accurate enough for a PCN?
3) As you say, the council's photo/video doesn't show the
signage that I should have seen? It only shows me crossing the
boundary with the signs facing the other way. Is it a given that
there were signs showing the restriction in the other direction,
on that particular day and time? Do they not need to present
evidence that shows the signage I would/should have seen?
Will post more photos once I have visited again tomorrow as I
don't want to confuse things.
In the meantime, I would be grateful for any help advice as I
have until Wednesday to make reps.
#Post#: 18130--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Croydon, Holmesdale Road - 52J Failing to comply with a
Prohibition on Certain Types of Vehicle
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: March 22, 2024, 7:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Frankly, I don't think any of the points you have raised are
ones that will win at adjudication, (London Tribunals), although
not actually showing you passing a sign could win if you get a
sympathetic adjudicator. The council will refuse all reps as all
they're interested in is the money.
Also note that there is no discount option at adjudication, it's
the full penalty if you lose, and nil to pay if you win; a
double-or-quits gamble, basically.
#Post#: 18135--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Croydon, Holmesdale Road - 52J Failing to comply with a
Prohibition on Certain Types of Vehicle
DIR By: taffer87
Date: March 23, 2024, 3:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> Frankly, I don't think any of the points you have raised are
ones that will win at adjudication, (London Tribunals), although
not actually showing you passing a sign could win if you get a
sympathetic adjudicator. The council will refuse all reps as all
they're interested in is the money.
>
> Also note that there is no discount option at adjudication,
it's the full penalty if you lose, and nil to pay if you win; a
double-or-quits gamble, basically.
>
--- End Quote ---
Library images are accepted unless it's really clear that they
are out of date etc / very old which won't be the case here
Of course council can mess up evidence occasionally though
#Post#: 18159--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Croydon, Holmesdale Road - 52J Failing to comply with a
Prohibition on Certain Types of Vehicle
DIR By: RS123
Date: March 23, 2024, 11:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> Frankly, I don't think any of the points you have raised are
ones that will win at adjudication, (London Tribunals), although
not actually showing you passing a sign could win if you get a
sympathetic adjudicator. The council will refuse all reps as all
they're interested in is the money.
>
> Also note that there is no discount option at adjudication,
it's the full penalty if you lose, and nil to pay if you win; a
double-or-quits gamble, basically.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you for your candour [member=12]Incandescent[/member]. If
I had one PCN, I would possibly gamble but, as I have two, I'm
not sure I am ready to lose £260! I will post about the other
PCN in a day or so once I have decided what to do regarding this
one.
#Post#: 18161--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Croydon, Holmesdale Road - 52J Failing to comply with a
Prohibition on Certain Types of Vehicle
DIR By: RS123
Date: March 23, 2024, 11:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: taffer87 link ---
>
> [quote author=Incandescent link=topic=1517.msg18130#msg18130
date=1711153695]
> Frankly, I don't think any of the points you have raised are
ones that will win at adjudication, (London Tribunals), although
not actually showing you passing a sign could win if you get a
sympathetic adjudicator. The council will refuse all reps as all
they're interested in is the money.
>
> Also note that there is no discount option at adjudication,
it's the full penalty if you lose, and nil to pay if you win; a
double-or-quits gamble, basically.
>
--- End Quote ---
Library images are accepted unless it's really clear that they
are out of date etc / very old which won't be the case here
Of course council can mess up evidence occasionally though
[/quote]
Thank you [member=832]taffer87[/member]. In that case it is
probably not worth the gamble on those grounds.
Are you the same person who commented on the Holmesdale Road PCN
on PPP a month ago?
PPP 52J Holmesdale Road Park Road
HTML http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=153354
I have just received a PCN for that stretch of road so need to
deal with that one next :(
#Post#: 18162--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Croydon, Holmesdale Road - 52J Failing to comply with a
Prohibition on Certain Types of Vehicle
DIR By: RS123
Date: March 23, 2024, 11:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I now have a photo of the signage at the entrance to Holmesdale
Road which I turned right into.
Signage at Entrance of Road
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1u3XmhQcCxAdYN7b6xXhK_aLT_sYpCoeG/view?usp=sharing
As can be seen, there are 3 signs: two 'No Through Road except
cycles' signs at the junction/entrance to the road; then further
down the pavement, a blue sign high up on a lamppost, advising
of the prohibition.
Am I correct that the 'No Through Road except cycles' signs
don't necessarily indicate a prohibition; just that you will
eventually reach a dead end for motor vehicles but access will
be there for cyclists to continue? I think this is how we
interpreted it, so we turned into Holmesdale Road intending to
drive partway down and turn off prior to reaching the 'dead
end'.
Could there be grounds for reps on the basis that:
- the first signs you see prior to turning into Holmesdale Rad
are the 'No Through Road except cycles' signs
- only after you have committed to turning into the road, you
might (or might not) notice the warning sign on the lamppost.
It was raining and dark at 17.39 on the day in question - I did
not see this blue warning sign at all.
Please advise if there could be ground for reps on the basis of
the signage at all or any other grounds that someone may have
spotted that I have missed?
#Post#: 18170--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Croydon, Holmesdale Road - 52J Failing to comply with a
Prohibition on Certain Types of Vehicle
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: March 23, 2024, 5:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Am I correct that the 'No Through Road except cycles' signs
don't necessarily indicate a prohibition;
They're warning signs not regulatory signs, just as the flying
motorcycle on blue background is a warning.
The regulatory sign in your case is not in view, but its other
half is. The council will have library evidence to the effect
that you passed a regulatory 'flying motorbike' so IMO don't
risk £65 on such a flimsy argument.
#Post#: 18172--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Croydon, Holmesdale Road - 52J Failing to comply with a
Prohibition on Certain Types of Vehicle
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: March 23, 2024, 6:35 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
OK, you missed the advance warning sign, but you actually drove
past the restrictions signs. They would have been facing you on
your approach. It's difficult to give more advice without a
view of the signs you approach; GSV is not sufficiently
up-to-date to show them.
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