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#Post#: 20579--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Southwark Council Parking - CC 81
DIR By: mang0
Date: April 25, 2024, 7:21 am
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--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> [member=1356]mang0[/member] this looks really simple to me:
the photos do not show any contravention:
>
> There is no evidence of any signage to put you notice that
you're parking in an off-street car park, let alone of any
signage telling you that a PCN may be issued for parking outside
of a bay or in a restricted area. As such the council did not
bring the terms of the off-street parking places order to your
attention, so there was no contravention.
>
> The order is [] so you don't need to wait for the council
to provide it (indeed I'd suggest you withdraw your FOI request
so the next person in the queue gets their information request
answered a bit quicker). The map tile for Northfield House is on
page 197 and I don't see that it creates either a bay nor a
restricted area where you parked your car:
> []
> If this is put to the council properly in the formal
representations (which I'm happy to draft for you), we could
make the case that it would be wholly unreasonable for them to
reject. If they are then silly enough to reject, we can go after
them for costs at the tribunal.
>
> Do you have the V5C and is the address up to date?
>
--- End Quote ---
Hey - I'm not sure how I missed your reply! I think my browser
was showing me a cached version. Apologies for the delay
responding.
Thanks so much for your input. Southwark Council still haven't
got back to me with the FOI request. I'm very happy to cancel
it. I've just had the NtO come through a couple of days ago:
LINK TO NTO
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1D8a3Hizj3RpXXKfvDK4MeOfaTIE0NWmF/view?usp=drive_link
I really appreciate you passing on that TMO with the relevant
parking information etc. There really is no signage around the
estate about parking, I have looked many times; it's a free for
all. To be honest the Northfield House resident's association is
always up in arms about parking here, as there's so little of it
and there are a lot of outsiders that come and park here despite
it supposedly being resident's parking.
The only thing I would add to the images, is that I think you
circled the wrong spot - I overlaid the Google Maps pic (where
you had circled the marked bay I parked in) and the estate
parking pic, and I was was parked in that cut-off corner; that
is marked a dark orange colour and so technically is 'no waiting
at any time', despite it being a painted white-lined bay! Does
this make a difference despite there being no signage?
HTML https://i.imgur.com/Lw7pAqH.png
I am definitely open to discussing some assistance with drafting
my representation in response to the NtO. Whilst I could pay the
£65/£130 and move on, it's more a matter of principal that I
have contacted the council multiple times about parking over the
last few years, never received a reply, and then got this PCN.
I do have the V5C with correct address etc listed, yes.
Thanks again for all your help.
#Post#: 20898--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Southwark Council Parking - CC 81
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: April 28, 2024, 3:13 pm
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[member=1356]mang0[/member] hopefully this won't require much of
a discussion, here you go:
[indent]
Dear London Borough of Southwark,
I challenge liability for this PCN on the grounds that the
alleged contravention did not occur. The PCN alleges an
off-street contravention, so there is a requirement for the
council to communicate the terms and conditions of parking
created by the off-street parking places order to users of the
car park.
As the location is off-street, the Traffic Signs Regulations and
General Directions 2016 are irrelevant and are of no
application. Ordinarily in an off-street car park there would be
a tariff board outlining that the car park is subject to
statutory parkings controls, listing the terms and conditions of
parking, and stating that failure to comply with the
requirements imposed by the parking places order might result in
a penalty charge notice being served.
At this location there appears to be no signage at all, so there
is nothing to advise motorists that this is an off-street car
park subject to statutory controls, nor is there anything to
inform users that the bay markings are anything other than
merely advisory.
I would suggest it is wholly improper for an authority to fail
to convey the requirements of a parking places order or even
tell motorists that the land in question is a designated
off-street car park, and then say "Surprise! you have a
statutory PCN!" when the motorist had no way of knowing there
are any enforceable restrictions at all.
I had been given no information about the fact that this was an
off-street car park, or that a parking places order imposed any
restrictions, let alone what those restrictions might be.
In the circumstances the alleged contravention cannot have
occurred, and the penalty charge must be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,
[/indent]
Send it online, keep a copy, and make sure to keep a screenshot
of the confirmation page.
#Post#: 21261--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Southwark Council Parking - CC 81
DIR By: mang0
Date: May 1, 2024, 5:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> [member=1356]mang0[/member] hopefully this won't require much
of a discussion, here you go:
>
> [indent]
> -snip-
> [/indent]
>
> Send it online, keep a copy, and make sure to keep a
screenshot of the confirmation page.
>
--- End Quote ---
You are so generous - thank you! I have made my representation
now using your template, let's see where this goes next. Really
appreciate your help and detailed reply and letter for me.
Just to log it here too in case of future requirement - PROOF
HTML https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=17-8gLNe3oI39WdSzWgtqqhE5TX3jcU5A<br
/>of submission of representation.
I assume the message about the fine increasing to £195 by 25th
May if unpaid is on hold while my representation is in process?
#Post#: 21382--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Southwark Council Parking - CC 81
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: May 2, 2024, 6:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: mang0 link ---
>
> I assume the message about the fine increasing to £195 by 25th
May if unpaid is on hold while my representation is in process?
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, if they were to serve a charge certificate while the
representation is still outstanding that would be a procedural
impropriety, and an immediate and guaranteed win at the
tribunal.
#Post#: 21409--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Southwark Council Parking - CC 81
DIR By: mang0
Date: May 3, 2024, 5:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> [quote author=mang0 link=topic=1486.msg21261#msg21261
date=1714602771]
> I assume the message about the fine increasing to £195 by 25th
May if unpaid is on hold while my representation is in process?
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, if they were to serve a charge certificate while the
representation is still outstanding that would be a procedural
impropriety, and an immediate and guaranteed win at the
tribunal.
[/quote]
Great, thanks for clarifying. Will update when I hear back from
them.
#Post#: 22854--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Southwark Council Parking - CC 81
DIR By: mang0
Date: May 17, 2024, 10:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> [member=1356]mang0[/member]
> Send it online, keep a copy, and make sure to keep a
screenshot of the confirmation page.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hey [member=1]cp8759[/member] - so the council have got back to
me with a response to my representation against the NtO. They
have refused to cancel the PCN on the grounds that my vehicle
was not parked in a designated bay but on a yellow cross-hatched
area, which the highway code states is not allowed.
HERE
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QnHGqLcqeJSZF-sRLDzd0HBxb8hLg79u/view?usp=drive_link<br
/>is the full response they have emailed to me.
Advice on the best course of action now would be appreciated.
Thank you in advance!
#Post#: 22878--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Southwark Council Parking - CC 81
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: May 17, 2024, 12:34 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Well the response is utter drivel and as they've not reoffered
the discount, there's no point in paying now because even if you
appeal and lose, the penalty stays the same. That being said, I
think you're more likely than not to win.
#Post#: 22974--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Southwark Council Parking - CC 81
DIR By: mang0
Date: May 18, 2024, 8:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> Well the response is utter drivel and as they've not reoffered
the discount, there's no point in paying now because even if you
appeal and lose, the penalty stays the same. That being said, I
think you're more likely than not to win.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you. I agree - the letter also has grammatical errors and
mistakes in and doesn't really address any of the points brought
up throughout the process. Also as you say, I have nothing to
lose from trying now as the fine is already being held at the
full amount.
I know from reading through the forum it is often best to
request a personal hearing rather than postal. Do you think I
would be best served seeking someone more experienced to appeal
on my behalf, or is this something I should do myself?
I would post any draft of the Details of Appeal cover letter
section here before sending off as I have very much found the
advice you and others have given helpful so far I'm this
process.
Thanks again.
#Post#: 23001--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Southwark Council Parking - CC 81
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: May 18, 2024, 1:16 pm
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Was there a covering email message with the 'NOR' attachment?
#Post#: 23044--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Southwark Council Parking - CC 81
DIR By: mang0
Date: May 19, 2024, 6:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> Was there a covering email message with the 'NOR' attachment?
>
--- End Quote ---
THIS
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/18lJT2SnDfpmhAjXL0AjPwOLJWEaqnOkH/view?usp=drive_link<br
/>is the email they sent acknowledging my representation against
the NtO.
THIS
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1441LBzGGdeViG_Ftd1H6Y2yUWtDAvDfh/view?usp=drive_link<br
/>is the email they sent with the attachment of their rejection
to
my representation.
Is this what you mean? I have kept all documentation carefully
so can provide more if needed. Thanks!
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