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#Post#: 17519--------------------------------------------------
PCN - Southwark Council Parking - CC 81
DIR By: mang0
Date: March 17, 2024, 8:31 pm
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Hi all,
Council name: Southwark
Location: Peckham
Code: 81
Alleged contravention: Parked in a restricted area in an
off-street car park or housing estate
On Fri 23rd Feb evening, there was 1 bay free in my estate
parking when I returned from work. GOOGLE STREET VIEW
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4825779,-0.0664927,3a,75y,21.14h,76.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQJh0Hr98VoPdxG9nqfXHCg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu.<br
/>This bay is squeezed up against a brick wall that is hugely
overgrown with bushes (council's responsibility), making it
impossible to park with all 4 wheels inside the marked bay. I
parked as closely to the wall as I could without risking
damaging the car and allowing the doors to open.
On Sat 24th Feb @ 10:01 a PCN was issued and placed on my car. I
found it later that day. This was Code 81.
PCN: PCN IMAGE
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ut_p3Zfg78beR5RBYU6A0l_W1t19HWNF/view?usp=drive_link
REVERSE SIDE OF PCN
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1c5Flo1hD1QESv24Y59O07Ic5CIkhVf2L/view?usp=drive_link
I sent a challenge on the same day; rather than explaining all
the detail in this post it will be clearer for me to share the
actual challenge: CHALLENGE DOCUMENT
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1r989UAc4CaMV5iNyDQPYjDEIbkCQwt3Y/view?usp=drive_link
What I did not mention in the challenge is that I now have 10+
photos of other cars parked in similar fashion all over the
estate, none of which have received a PCN. In the 4 years I have
lived here, I don't know anyone here who has received a PCN. I
am not going to dob anyone else in, but it doesn't seem right
that the enforcement is so lax sometimes and stringent at
others.
On Weds 13th Mar, I recieved a response from Southwark Council.
They have said that I "parked in an unmarked area" which isn't
true - the vast majority of my car was within the marked bay,
but I wasn't able to get all 4 wheels in because of the
overgrowth. I made sure my car was not blocking anyone; and in
fact a flatbed transit came through while I was there so I know
there was no issue with blocking.
The main point they seem to be making is that due to the
motorcycle parked in the bay, I should not have parked there.
However, my rear wheels were still in line with the rear white
line as you can see in THIS PHOTO
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/13cB7Zplc7JNlYN2Tpp8L4lu9-pUsaFKd/view?usp=drive_link.<br
/>The problem was that I had to park further to the right due to
not being able to get close enough to the wall because of the
overgrowth of bushes. The motorcycle made no difference... the
response also ignores the point I have raised about there being
no alternative parking. I'm not allowed to park on any external
streets anymore because they are now permit only, and as a
resident in an estate I can't get the permit! I have emailed
asking about it and no response. And there were no other bays
free in the estate. So what was I supposed to do at 10pm on a
Friday night?
Response Letter from Southwark Council: RESPONSE IMAGE
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mMyszKjoAY-bCWu57Qn2fOAu117E8QSz/view?usp=drive_link
Any guidance here would be much appreciated! I feel absolutely
fleeced because I tried to do the right thing here, and I have
received a PCN. Whereas I have photos of other cars parked on
double yellows all around the estate, at all times of the
week/day/night, with no PCN issued. One rule for some, one for
others... doesn't sit well with me.
Thank you in advance.
#Post#: 17525--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Southwark Council Parking - CC 81
DIR By: taffer87
Date: March 18, 2024, 12:18 am
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can you post a google street view link to exactly where you
parked
council photos don’t support what you say prima facie
HTML https://i.ibb.co/yRx0Gys/IMG-2852.png
HTML https://ibb.co/6ZqYVPs
HTML https://i.ibb.co/YRJW7W1/IMG-2851.png
HTML https://ibb.co/HFR2D2b
#Post#: 17553--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Southwark Council Parking - CC 81
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: March 18, 2024, 6:58 am
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OP, the back of the PCN pl.
HTML https://www.southwark.gov.uk/assets/attach/185476/Tenants-Handbook-part-9.-Parking.pdf
See heading 2, Estate Parking, in particular 'sometimes using
the same codes'!
I don't see that the location is subject to enforcement under
the Traffic Management Act, and if it is then the requirements
as regards clear signing of bays, their use, what happens for
non-compliance should apply but none of which is visible in HSV.
Using your Tenant's Handbook as a frame of reference, ask for a
copy of the traffic order which applies to Northfield House.
#Post#: 17560--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Southwark Council Parking - CC 81
DIR By: mang0
Date: March 18, 2024, 7:33 am
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--- Quote from: taffer87 link ---
>
> can you post a google street view link to exactly where you
parked
>
> council photos don’t support what you say prima facie
>
--- End Quote ---
Apologies - I actually didn't realise that Google Street View
came into the estate - I parked in this bay: LINK
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4825779,-0.0664927,3a,75y,30.96h,82.27t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQJh0Hr98VoPdxG9nqfXHCg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DQJh0Hr98VoPdxG9nqfXHCg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D206.40804%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu<br
/>I have never seen anyone else get a ticket for parking in that
bay, despite the fact many other cars have parked there
overhanging the bay into the yellow cross-hatch. EXAMPLES
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Wxyk0-4EKyoja3BG1dQRi3W9lohkJdmo/view?usp=drive_link
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Wxyk0-4EKyoja3BG1dQRi3W9lohkJdmo/view?usp=drive_link
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> OP, the back of the PCN pl.
>
>
HTML https://www.southwark.gov.uk/assets/attach/185476/Tenants-Handbook-part-9.-Parking.pdf
>
> See heading 2, Estate Parking, in particular 'sometimes using
the same codes'!
>
> I don't see that the location is subject to enforcement under
the Traffic Management Act, and if it is then the requirements
as regards clear signing of bays, their use, what happens for
non-compliance should apply but none of which is visible in HSV.
>
> Using your Tenant's Handbook as a frame of reference, ask for
a copy of the traffic order which applies to Northfield House.
>
--- End Quote ---
Of course - sorry. Back of PCN: IMAGE
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1c5Flo1hD1QESv24Y59O07Ic5CIkhVf2L/view?usp=drive_link
I had a quick walk around the estate, and I cannot find any
signs anywhere mentioning anything about parking restrictions.
There is definitely no Estate Parking Permit scheme in
operation; last year we have had several consultations about
whether this will be implemented but so far it is still not in
place.
I phoned the parking line, got put through to another line... no
answer. I have emailed them to ask for the applicable Traffic
Orders. I should receive a reply within 3 working days . I can't
find anything on their online portal
HTML https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/traffic-orders-licensing-strategies-and-regulation/traffic-management-orders?chapter=4<br
/>where they say you should request TMOs.
Also I'm not sure what HSV means? Forgive my ignorance!
Thanks for all your help so far.
#Post#: 17572--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Southwark Council Parking - CC 81
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: March 18, 2024, 9:17 am
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Also I'm not sure what HSV means? Forgive my ignorance!
Not ignorance, observation....of my mistype, should be GSV!
Keep at getting the order, in my opinion the whole thing stinks.
#Post#: 17585--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Southwark Council Parking - CC 81
DIR By: mang0
Date: March 18, 2024, 11:12 am
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Aha! GSV makes more sense. I have added link in post to GSV now
too. Glad to hear it's not just me that thinks there is some
injustice here... I got an auto-email reply to my request for
the TMO saying they should get back to me within three days.
Will update when I hear back. I've got until Weds 27th before I
either pay £65 or wait for the NtO so hopefully they will get
back to me before then.
#Post#: 17946--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Southwark Council Parking - CC 81
DIR By: mang0
Date: March 21, 2024, 9:15 am
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Well - Southwark Council have bounced my request to the Freedom
of Information department. That means they get until 17th April
to give me a response... time I don't have with this ticket
looming over me.
Any further advice on whether to wait for the NtO and fight it
or whether it's a lost cause would be great... thanks team!
Response below from the Council:
--- Quote ---
> Freedom of Information Act 2000
>
> Thank you for your request for information, that was received
on 18 March 2024.
> The request is as follows:
>
> I am a resident of Northfield House, Peckham Park Road, SE15
6TN. I have been reading about the Estate Parking guidelines in
the Tenant's Handbook (
HTML https://www.southwark.gov.uk/assets/attach/185476/Tenants-Handbook-part-9.-Parking.pdf<br
/>) and I noticed this section:
>
> "The council also have written traffic management orders and
enforce on housing estates using the same powers as on the
highway."
>
> Please can you email me a copy of all Traffic Management
Orders that are relevant and applicable to Northfield House
Estate Parking? The relevant section of the Southwark Council
website
HTML https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/traffic-orders-licensing-strategies-and-regulation/traffic-management-orders?chapter=4<br
/>does not list anything about Northfield House.
>
>
> We are dealing with your request under the Freedom of
Information Act 2000 and we aim to send a response by 17 April
2024.
>
> The Freedom of Information Act 2000 may restrict the release
of some or all of the information you have requested. We will
carry out an assessment and if any exemptions apply to some or
all of the information then we might not provide that
information to you. We will inform you if this is the case and
advise you of your rights to request an internal review and to
complain to the Information Commissioner's Office.
>
> We will also advise you if we cannot provide you with the
information requested for any other reason together with the
reason(s) why and details of how you may appeal (if
appropriate).
>
> Yours faithfully
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 17963--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Southwark Council Parking - CC 81
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: March 21, 2024, 11:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
That means they get until 17th April to give me a response...
time I don't have with this ticket looming over me.
I don't follow...possibly because I can see only one page of the
authority's response to your initial challenge. Pl ensure all
sides are posted.
Anyway, if you are the registered keeper and if these details
are current then if you were to make unsuccessful reps against a
NTO then it is very probable that the discount would be
re-offered in any event.
The date they've given you is the upper limit prescribed under
law, not the likely time by which they should reply, after all
it's a published public document and one which they should use
as a source of reference regularly..if they get challenged on
issuing PCNs on housing estates!
#Post#: 17967--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Southwark Council Parking - CC 81
DIR By: mang0
Date: March 21, 2024, 12:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Apologies, I think I wasn't clear - the 17th April message was
their response to my request for a copy of the applicable
Traffic Management Order. They seem to have deemed that a FOI
request despite it being something that should already be in the
public domain. So I might not get copies of that until mid April
- though as you say, if it takes them that long to get hold of
it that also makes me think they are hedging their bets that
people won't challenge their PCNs! I still expect to of course
receive the NtO after not paying within 28 days of the issue of
the PCN, so I will wait for that as well as the Traffic
Management Order.
HERE
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ERCosCtGtwN1-w2QCuZYp055t0ZjWBGm/view?usp=drive_link<br
/>is the link to the full response, both sides. Sorry, totally
my
mistake not to include the reverse side.
#Post#: 18645--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Southwark Council Parking - CC 81
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: March 31, 2024, 6:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=1356]mang0[/member] this looks really simple to me: the
photos do not show any contravention:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/pWwJbvO.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/rdXoQzC.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/oBViRyJ.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/1VE1SSX.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/yXUSkMA.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/q5P2h5e.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/s7Km6Re.jpeg
There is no evidence of any signage to put you notice that
you're parking in an off-street car park, let alone of any
signage telling you that a PCN may be issued for parking outside
of a bay or in a restricted area. As such the council did not
bring the terms of the off-street parking places order to your
attention, so there was no contravention.
The order is The London Borough of Southwark (Housing estate
roads and car parks) (No. 1) Order 2012
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vEYPgq-DQv_Ua-xz__gNg97WshQGr28D/view<br
/>so you don't need to wait for the council to provide it
(indeed
I'd suggest you withdraw your FOI request so the next person in
the queue gets their information request answered a bit
quicker). The map tile for Northfield House is on page 197 and I
don't see that it creates either a bay nor a restricted area
where you parked your car:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/7tfRo2n.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/84A9fwF.png
If this is put to the council properly in the formal
representations (which I'm happy to draft for you), we could
make the case that it would be wholly unreasonable for them to
reject. If they are then silly enough to reject, we can go after
them for costs at the tribunal.
Do you have the V5C and is the address up to date?
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