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#Post#: 17033--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge refusing to accept Crime reference number for
cloned plates.
DIR By: mrmustard
Date: March 9, 2024, 3:42 am
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I would like to manage this PCN for you.
Redbridge are not the most competent council in London.
They recently refused to accept a new address for a keeper
without seeing written proof of it, I declined. They lost the
case at the tribunal because the adjudicator picked up a flaw in
their evidence before I got in the room, that the traffic order
was an experimental one and had expired 2 years earlier. I had
that as one of my 5 arguments.
My record against Redbridge since I started keeping decent
records in 2017 is 3 cancellations at the informal stage, 4 at
the formal stage, 15 Appeals not contested, 7 Appeals won and 1
appeal lost (moving traffic so tough to beat).
If selfstartr you want me on your side then please send me
unredacted copies of everything. Apart from following due
process, I have the following ideas:
- get a letter from the hire company listing all the PCN dates,
councils and outcomes. This will show that on the balance of
probabilities the car was cloned. Get some photos of the hire
car from the hire company.
- ask the police if they have issued any 'full crime reports' in
the last 12 months for cloning.
- ask Redbridge how many they have received in the last 12
months and to provide copies of 3 such reports with personal
data redacted.
- make a complaint to Redbridge and ask them by what method they
are going to prove the car in their images is the one you were
driving as they have to prove their case as a first step at the
tribunal.
I have a desk full of paper so will be a few days but email
everything unredacted to mrmustard@zoho.com and I will get to it
as soon as I can.
#Post#: 17088--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge refusing to accept Crime reference number for
cloned plates.
DIR By: guest17
Date: March 10, 2024, 11:23 am
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Mr M will probably have this one to hand:-
Cloned Vehicle----The Burden of Proof
2220717836 Basil Sawyers v London Borough of Croydon
Mr. Sawyers attended the adjourned hearing along with his
daughter. In the meantime, as I had directed, he had uploaded in
good time some further evidence in support of his case. The
evidence comprised photographs of his vehicle and an e-mail from
the Metropolitan Police concerning Mr. Sawyers' complaint that
the registration mark of his vehicle had been copied and applied
to registration plates on a different vehicle. That is to say,
his registration plate had been 'cloned'. The enforcement
authority (EA) had not provided any response to this evidence.
Mr. Sawyers argues that the vehicle involved in the
contravention was not his but was, instead, the vehicle with the
'cloned' registration plate. A person who wishes to 'clone' a
registration plate will almost invariably apply that
registration plate to a vehicle that is almost identical. That
is because the purpose of the cloning is primarily to pass
liability for civil road traffic contraventions like this, and
possibly road traffic offences, onto the genuine holder of the
registration mark for a different vehicle. That objective is
much less easily achieved if the 'cloning' is easy to detect
because the vehicles are obviously different. For the 'cloning'
strategy to be harder to detect and frustrate, the vehicles must
appear identical. Indeed, as the evidence shows, the type and
colour of Mr. Sawyers' vehicle is the same as the vehicle
involved in the contravention.
Mr. Sawyers has shown, however, with his photographs, that there
are positive dissimilarities between his vehicle and the
contravening vehicle. The contravening vehicle has inbuilt
roof-rack retainers that his vehicle does not. The lower grilles
of the two vehicles are different colours. The offside rear
wheels have different types of wheel trim. Mr. Sawyers has
complained to the Police about 'cloning' and he has received
other PCNs for which he says he is not liable, including one in
Oxfordshire.
For the reasons I gave in the case of Khader v. LB Tower Hamlets
(2180375573, 27 October 2018), in my view there is no reverse
burden of proof placed on an appellant in a case in which the
issue is the identity of a vehicle rather than the identify of
its owner. Rather, the burden is on an appellant merely to raise
the issue of the identity of the vehicle. The outcome of this
case would, however, have been the same no matter who bore the
burden of proof.
The EA has failed to prove that the two vehicles are probably
the same. Indeed, I find the contravening vehicle is probably
not the same as Mr. Sawyers' vehicle.
I note the response of the Metropolitan Police in the e-mail of
1 July 2022. The complaint "was not recorded as a crime". If the
Police take the view that no crime has been committed, or that
it is of no consequence, they are completely wrong on both
points. Forgery or fraudulent use of a registration mark is a
criminal offence contrary to section 44 of the Vehicle Excise
and Registration Act 1994. It can have significant impact on the
victim, who may find themselves wrongly held liable for civil
road traffic contraventions and may find themselves wrongly
investigated for road traffic offences committed in the vehicle
with the 'cloned' registration plate. The Police should, in my
view, have investigated this matter.
___________________________________________
Mike
#Post#: 17091--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge refusing to accept Crime reference number for
cloned plates.
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: March 10, 2024, 11:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hire firm transferred it to me as per process.
Really!
It's not as per process because if you have a defence against
the PCN then you have grounds for complaint to the hire company.
You hired the 'real' VRM ABC, not the one in the PCN(s) they
received. IMO, it is THEIR responsibility to argue that they are
not the owner and not simply to pass the buck. And you appear to
have adequate info that your assertion is correct.
#Post#: 20373--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge refusing to accept Crime reference number for
cloned plates.
DIR By: BBC London
Date: April 23, 2024, 5:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi there Selfstrtr,
I'm doing a TV piece about this topic for BBC London TV. Is it
possible you could email me to let me know how you got on with
this situation. You should be able to access my email via this
post.
All the best, Jim
#Post#: 20379--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge refusing to accept Crime reference number for
cloned plates.
DIR By: selfstartr
Date: April 23, 2024, 8:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: BBC London link ---
>
> Hi there Selfstrtr,
>
> I'm doing a TV piece about this topic for BBC London TV. Is it
possible you could email me to let me know how you got on with
this situation. You should be able to access my email via this
post.
>
> All the best, Jim
>
--- End Quote ---
Hi Jim - couldn't find your email, but I've DMd you with my
email using this forum's message feature :) I have another
£1000+ worth of fines from Newham Council, coincidently today
they are not threatening me with bailiffs. They are not
accepting mine, nor BMW Inchape PLCs evidence!
Happy to chat :)
#Post#: 20799--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge refusing to accept Crime reference number for
cloned plates.
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: April 27, 2024, 12:41 pm
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[member=1332]selfstartr[/member] I strongly recommend you take
up mrmustard's offer.
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