DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so ...
*****************************************************
#Post#: 16950--------------------------------------------------
Redbridge refusing to accept Crime reference number for cloned
plates.
DIR By: selfstartr
Date: March 7, 2024, 5:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Located in England.
Hi there,
A hire car I was driving outside of London had it's plates
cloned.
During the 3 days I had it, the car racked up 10+ PCNs worth
£1000s in central London (and continued to do so for other users
of the hire car later).
The hire car firm kindly got involved and managed to get all
PCNs with all but one council cancelled thanks to a Crime
Reference Number.
However, Redbridge are refusing to do this. They say they need a
full report (whatever that means - which Thames Valley Report
understandably wont provide due to limited resources).
- I am being threatened with court and bailiffs etc if I dont
pay within 7 days.
- Crime Ref supplied from Thames Valley but refused
- It feels like this is outsourced overseas (due to language
barriers in email and on phone)
- Insisting on pictures of car (what will that show? The car is
identical so doesnt help. Plus its a hire car.
- As an aside, Redbridge have been appalling with
communications, and went AWOL for weeks, putting it on pause
because "it was with the manager to review", and then finally
resumed proceedings. They then changed the "14 Day Deadline" to
"7 Days" after I sent a somewhat pissy but factually correct
email.
- The car has numerous PCNS against it with different drivers.
Clearly, common sense shows that not all hire car users are
driving 2 hours to London and breaking all the traffic codes
each day.
It looks like Redbridge have history over
this:
HTML https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6299468/council-rejects-appeal-for-pcn-of-cloned-car
I genuinely think this could be the next big council scandal.
Outsourced firms with revenue targets breaking the appeal
guidelines. Im lucky I have a PLC firm on side to help support a
bit but it's terrifying to think many dont.
In this instance - do Redbridge have the right to refuse a
Police crime number and take me to court? Im super stressed and
I feel very powerless. It's bullying and defies all common sense
and discretion.
#Post#: 16951--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge refusing to accept Crime reference number for
cloned plates.
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: March 7, 2024, 6:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
This sounds like you have a Bailiff's Notice of Enforcement?
Please post it up, just obscure/redact your name & address and
leave the rest visible.
Is the NoE addressed to you at your address? Or your company?
Did you receive an Order for Recovery (of Unpaid Penalty
Charge). If so, please post that up, Leave everything visible
except for your name and address. Did you submit the Witness
Statement / Statutory Declaration that was attached to the OfR.
I guess you didn't.
Is the OfR addressed to you at your address? Or your company?
#Post#: 16954--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge refusing to accept Crime reference number for
cloned plates.
DIR By: selfstartr
Date: March 7, 2024, 6:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks - not yet but been threatened with "debt being registered
at Northampton County Court." if i dont supply a "full crime
report" within 7 days.
#Post#: 16955--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge refusing to accept Crime reference number for
cloned plates.
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: March 7, 2024, 6:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Is there only the one Redbridge PCN?
Who has been threatened? You or your company?
Have you received any Charge Certificates?
Please confirm that the hire company transferred liability to
you?
Did you or your company receive a Notice to Owner or a postal
Penalty Charge Notices from Redbridge?
Is it correct that you challenged (submitted representations)
against the NTO/PCN and were asked for further proof of the
cloning? Or did they send you a Notice of Rejection?
Sorry for all the questions but it's best to nail down all of
the facts.
#Post#: 16956--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge refusing to accept Crime reference number for
cloned plates.
DIR By: selfstartr
Date: March 7, 2024, 6:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Enceladus link ---
>
> Is there only the one Redbridge PCN?
>
> Who has been threatened? You or your company?
> Have you received any Charge Certificates?
>
> Please confirm that the hire company transferred liability to
you?
> Did you or your company receive a Notice to Owner or a postal
Penalty Charge Notices from Redbridge?
>
> Is it correct that you challenged (submitted representations)
against the NTO/PCN and were asked for further proof of the
cloning? Or did they send you a Notice of Rejection?
>
> Sorry for all the questions but it's best to nail down all of
the facts.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes just one from Redbridge. Hire firm transferred it to me as
per process. The PCN is in my name.
I have one Charge Certificate. This was issued incorrectly I
believe and I stated my reasons in my reply to them via email to
the case manager. The bullet points in the criteria do not mach
the criteria to send out the certificate, as I provided evidence
(Crime ref number) and appealed correctly.
The case was then put on pause in January because of
radio-silence from my case manager. The Redbridge call center
paused the case after I called to complain. I continued to chase
via email to the named case manager and finally heard back last
week from her boss. (1 month later).
I appealed with correct procedure, and now am in email
communications with a senior member of the enforcement team,
having been escalated after 6 weeks of radio silence from
Redbridge.
Boss' title is: Business Processing Manager – Parking Management
She has emailed today and said that I have 7 days to provide a
"Full Crime Report" (which isnt standard procedure and Thames
Valley Police dont issue these) or else the debt will be
registered at Northampton Court.
#Post#: 16958--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge refusing to accept Crime reference number for
cloned plates.
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: March 7, 2024, 6:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Well did you challenge the postal PCN/NTO when it arrived?
Sounds like you did not do so since you have a subsequent Charge
Certificate.
If so, that was a mistake. You've fallen out of the process.
This is a statutory process and you need to follow it or you'll
end up, rightly or wrongly, with a bailiff at the door. Had you
challenged the NOT/PCN in time then the Council would have had
to issue a Notice of Rejection with credentials to appeal to the
Independent Adjudicator where you would have almost certainly
won.
The next stage will be to register the Charge at the Traffic
Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court.
What date was the original PCN?
Did you challenge in any way? If so, when and how?
Please post up the text of the correspondence chain with the
Council.
#Post#: 16960--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge refusing to accept Crime reference number for
cloned plates.
DIR By: slapdash
Date: March 7, 2024, 7:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Photos of the car would have helped. Dings, dents, subtle
difference with number plate surrounds, stickers, different
lights things like that. Though not relevant to the current
state of play.
#Post#: 16962--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge refusing to accept Crime reference number for
cloned plates.
DIR By: selfstartr
Date: March 7, 2024, 7:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Enceladus link ---
>
> Well did you challenge the postal PCN/NTO when it arrived?
> Sounds like you did not do so since you have a subsequent
Charge Certificate.
> If so, that was a mistake. You've fallen out of the process.
>
> This is a statutory process and you need to follow it or
you'll end up, rightly or wrongly, with a bailiff at the door.
Had you challenged the NOT/PCN in time then the Council would
have had to issue a Notice of Rejection with credentials to
appeal to the Independent Adjudicator where you would have
almost certainly won.
>
> The next stage will be to register the Charge at the Traffic
Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court.
>
> What date was the original PCN?
> Did you challenge in any way? If so, when and how?
>
> Please post up the text of the correspondence chain with the
Council.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hi there,
Yes, the good news is I appealed at every stage correctly.
I appealed using the online form, and the hire firm posted (and
emailed) a letter with this wording to support me:
--- Quote ---
> Dear Sir or Madam,
> I have received the above parking charge from yourself. We
originally transferred liability of this offence
> over to a customer, Mr x. Case reference number: TFx
> It has since been brought to our attention that in fact, x
wasn’t in the vehicle at all and our
> registration plates of xreg have been cloned.
> We have reported this to Thames Valley Police who are helping
us with this matter but in the meantime if
> you can please cancel the above charge made to Mr x and
instead we can provide you with the crime
> reference number which is as follows: x
> Please do feel free to get in contact with myself if you
require anything else from us.
>
> Kind regards
>
--- End Quote ---
This letter and my appeal was dated within the initial PCN 28
Day window. A case manager reached out and said they rejected my
"Ring Doorbell Footage", despite the main evidence being an
Crime Reference Number. We then reminded them of this via email.
We then heard nothing back but got a charge certificate. I then
called the council, who paused the case due to radio silence
from the case manager. I chased twice more over a 4 week period
via the case manager's email address which brings us to last
week when they finally responded, saying the Crime Reference
Number isnt sufficient.
So the main issue regardless of their process errors, is them
not accepting a Crime Reference Number from the Police as proof
the car was cloned. Is this allowed?
#Post#: 16978--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge refusing to accept Crime reference number for
cloned plates.
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: March 7, 2024, 12:08 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
So the main issue regardless of their process errors, is them
not accepting a Crime Reference Number from the Police as proof
the car was cloned. Is this allowed?
No it is not, now that a CC has been issued the matter IS
procedural and only possibly would the actual facts of the case
come into play.
As per others, we need dates, not statements from you.
So,
The grounds of contravention pl;
Postal PCN/NTO issued to you in your name on what date?
Your representations sent on what date?
Their Notice of Rejection of Representations issued on what
date?
CC issued on?
#Post#: 16982--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge refusing to accept Crime reference number for
cloned plates.
DIR By: taffer87
Date: March 7, 2024, 2:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: selfstartr link ---
>
> Located in England.
>
> Hi there,
>
> A hire car I was driving outside of London had it's plates
cloned.
>
> During the 3 days I had it, the car racked up 10+ PCNs worth
£1000s in central London (and continued to do so for other users
of the hire car later).
>
> The hire car firm kindly got involved and managed to get all
PCNs with all but one council cancelled thanks to a Crime
Reference Number.
>
> However, Redbridge are refusing to do this. They say they need
a full report (whatever that means - which Thames Valley Report
understandably wont provide due to limited resources).
>
>
>
>
- I am being threatened with court and bailiffs etc if I dont
pay within 7 days.
>
- Crime Ref supplied from Thames Valley but refused
>
- It feels like this is outsourced overseas (due to language
barriers in email and on phone)
>
- Insisting on pictures of car (what will that show? The car is
identical so doesnt help. Plus its a hire car.
>
- As an aside, Redbridge have been appalling with
communications, and went AWOL for weeks, putting it on pause
because "it was with the manager to review", and then finally
resumed proceedings. They then changed the "14 Day Deadline" to
"7 Days" after I sent a somewhat pissy but factually correct
email.
>
- The car has numerous PCNS against it with different drivers.
Clearly, common sense shows that not all hire car users are
driving 2 hours to London and breaking all the traffic codes
each day.
>
>
> It looks like Redbridge have history over
this:
HTML https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6299468/council-rejects-appeal-for-pcn-of-cloned-car
>
> I genuinely think this could be the next big council scandal.
Outsourced firms with revenue targets breaking the appeal
guidelines. Im lucky I have a PLC firm on side to help support a
bit but it's terrifying to think many dont.
>
> In this instance - do Redbridge have the right to refuse a
Police crime number and take me to court? Im super stressed and
I feel very powerless. It's bullying and defies all common sense
and discretion.
>
--- End Quote ---
There is too much noise and rambling in your posts making it
impossible for anyone to give clear and good advice.
You need to give all dates much more clearly and upload redacted
documents
Yes they do have the power to reject the crime report number
etc... if you made a representation against the NTO and they
sent you a notice of rejection
however, you then have the right to appeal to an independent
Tribunal where an adjudicator would decide based on your
evidence as well as council's evidence
if you don't appeal to the tribunal then yes it goes to Charge
Certificate stage and can then be registered in court
If you did not receive the notice of rejection then you will be
able to set the charge certificate aside via a witness statement
once the charge certificate is registered and then the case will
go to the adjudicator where you will need to submit evidence
(the council will provide the adjudicator with what you have
sent them though)
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 2
DIR Next Page