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#Post#: 16865--------------------------------------------------
Re: Excel Parking PCN
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: March 5, 2024, 3:30 pm
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--- Quote from: mkdon link ---
> Sorry for the daft question but what is commercial
justification.
--- End Quote ---
Not a daft question. In general, contracts cannot include
penalty clauses for breach of contract - previously, it used to
be the case that any fee charged for a breach had to represent
a 'genuine pre-estimate of loss'. Of course, a minor breach of a
parking contract does not cause Excel to incur £100 of losses,
so these charges used to be deemed unenforceable penalties. The
case of ParkingEye vs Beavis
HTML https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2015-0116.html
in 2015
changed this in certain circumstances. In that case, Beavis
overstayed the maximum stay in a free car park for shoppers at a
retail park - the court decided that the fee charged by
ParkingEye did not need to reflect their actual losses, because
they had a legitimate interest in ensuring that people did not
misuse the car park, denying shoppers the opportunity to park,
and affecting the income of the businesses on the retail park.
As such, the charge was commercially justifiable.
If you hadn't paid for your parking, then (notwithstanding
potential issues with the signage as discussed), the charge
would likely be enforceable - Excel have a clear legitimate
interest in deterring non-payment, which is the predominant
purpose of the £100 charge, and the charge may therefore be
deemed commercially justifiable. However, you did pay. Their
attempt to justify the charge is to say that the tariff was not
paid within 10 minutes of entry(or however long they expect
payment within) - as discussed this time limit seems entirely
arbitrary, and charging people £100 for not meeting this limit
does not appear to serve any justifiable purpose.
--- Quote from: mkdon link ---
>
> It makes no difference to them.
>
--- End Quote ---
It makes £100 worth of difference to them every time they catch
someone out - their business model is contingent on issuing as
many charges as possible.
#Post#: 16878--------------------------------------------------
Re: Excel Parking PCN
DIR By: b789
Date: March 5, 2024, 7:56 pm
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Nobody who gets advice from this forum or over on the MSE
parking forum pays Excel parking a penny. Losing an appeal from
these shysters (Hansard) means nothing and does not affect
anything if it should go all the way to court.
They rely on low hanging fruit on the gullible tree to
capitulate and pay into their scam. Letting it go to court is
what you want and what they don’t want.
It’s small claims in the county court. It’s civil law and
nothing criminal about it, except the behaviour of the likes of
ex-clamper thugs like Excel and their ilk, the unregulated
private parking industry.
If this were to go all the way, assuming that they don’t
discontinue before it ever gets in front of a judge because they
know they are on shaky ground, you would have a strong case and
if you used the robust template defence, you’d be highly likely
to win.
Paying a penny to these scammers would just mark you as a “mug”
for future reference. You’ve come here for advice and you are
already getting it.
Your defence is, amongst other things, it’s an unenforceable
penalty, the signage is rubbish and breaches the IPC Code of
Practice (CoP), due to the lack of lighting and clear, prominent
signs, no contract could have been formed. It is very possible
that Excel have no authority from the landowner to issue PCNs
and so on.
#Post#: 16881--------------------------------------------------
Re: Excel Parking PCN
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: March 6, 2024, 2:40 am
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--- Quote from: mkdon link ---
>
> Is it fool proof and does it apply to me?
>
--- End Quote ---
There's no such thing as a foolproof defence - we cannot
guarantee you success and you should be wary of anyone who
claims they can. But it's a argument that would apply to your
case and should be a decent one.
There's also always the possibility that a strong defence
convinces them to discontinue.
#Post#: 16884--------------------------------------------------
Re: Excel Parking PCN
DIR By: mkdon
Date: March 6, 2024, 3:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
thanks guys i really appreciate all you help. is it ok if i
share my draft email ive written to send to the Iceland CEO? im
hoping as a genuine customer he can intervene and get it
cancelled.
#Post#: 16885--------------------------------------------------
Re: Excel Parking PCN
DIR By: mkdon
Date: March 6, 2024, 3:34 am
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is the following ok to send to the ceo?
Dear Richard
I hope this message finds you well. I am writing to bring to
your attention an unfortunate incident that occurred at the
Iceland store's car park in Leytonstone, and to request your
intervention in overturning a parking ticket that was issued to
me.
On the day in question (nigh of14th February) I visited the
Iceland store to do some shopping with my family. This was my
first time at this particular store. After completing our
shopping and to ensure compliance with the car park regulations,
I made my payment before leaving the car park. The time from
entering to exiting was 20mins. To my surprise, I later received
a parking ticket from a private parking management company,
alleging that I had not paid upon arrival.
I would like to emphasize that my failure to pay upon arrival
was not intentional, but rather the result of poor visibility
and unclear signage within the car park, particularly during the
night. The lack of adequate lighting and signage made it
virtually impossible for me to discern the parking regulations
and payment instructions upon entering the premises. The CCTV
footage if any will show us even having to use our phone torches
to operate the ticket machine due to the poor lighting.
Given the circumstances, I was unaware of the requirement to pay
upon arrival, and had I been able to clearly see the signage, I
would have promptly complied with the regulations or taken
advantage of the free parking benefit available to Iceland
customers.
Furthermore, I wish to highlight that there was no commercial
justification for the parking ticket issued to me. I had
utilized the car park for its intended purpose as an Iceland
store customer, and I promptly paid for the parking before
leaving. Neither Iceland nor the landlord suffered any financial
loss as a result of my action. The only infraction in question
was a minor delay in payment, attributable solely to the
inadequate visibility and signage within the car park.
I kindly request your intervention in this matter to review the
circumstances surrounding the issuance of the parking ticket and
to consider overturning it. As a loyal customer of Iceland, I
value the positive experiences I have had with Iceland until
this incident, and I trust that your intervention in this
situation will not only rectify an unjust penalty but also
underscore the dedication of Iceland to customer satisfaction.
I sincerely hope for a fair and amicable resolution to this
issue and would be grateful for any assistance you are able to
provide in addressing this matter.
Thank you for taking the time to consider my appeal. I eagerly
await your response and remain hopeful for a positive outcome.
Yours sincerely,
#Post#: 16887--------------------------------------------------
Re: Excel Parking PCN
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: March 6, 2024, 4:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Any correspondence with the CEO is not an appeal so I wouldn't
describe it as such.
You still want to be polite but I'd be minded to strengthen up
the language a bit. Your goal is to make fobbing you off more
effort for them than cancelling the charge.
The problem you seemingly had with the store itself is that they
washed their hands of the matter and claimed they had no control
over Excel. We don't know how true that is (as we haven't seen
their contract) but at any rate, Excel have been hired by
Iceland and are acting as their agents, so I'd try and make
clear in your email that you're aware of this, and that you're
sure that Iceland would not want their agent charging their
loyal customers £100 even when they have already paid for their
parking.
Also make clear that you've tried appealing to Excel but they
are refusing to cancel the charge.
Depending on your approach, you might also want to reference the
Devon Live article and the fact that they may be keen to avoid
similar adverse press over a £1 parking fee...
#Post#: 16893--------------------------------------------------
Re: Excel Parking PCN
DIR By: b789
Date: March 6, 2024, 5:24 am
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Ugh! I'll actually have a read bit later and get back to you.
However, I've let ChatGPT describe to you how it feels about
it's own creation:
A ChatGPT generated letter that is dripping with condescension
and laden with unnecessary words. It's like wading through a
swamp of verbosity, each word more superfluous than the last,
while being patronisingly guided by a tone that suggests you
couldn't possibly grasp the point without being spoon-fed every
syllable. Your stomach churns, your brow furrows, and a sense of
revulsion washes over you, as if you've stumbled into a
conversation with an overbearing know-it-all who thinks they're
enlightening you but is really just drowning you in linguistic
quicksand. It's an assault on your intelligence and your
patience, leaving you itching to escape the suffocating embrace
of verbosity and condescension. :o
If you do use ChatGPT, you must also remove all the AmricaniZed
spellings which are another dead give away. Please go in and at
least edit it to make it sound more human-like. Use whatever
ChatGPT regurgitates as a guide and don't rely on it blindly.
Another dead give away is the supposed sentient nature of the
message. Since when can a non-sentient message hope it can find
someone well?
#Post#: 16898--------------------------------------------------
Re: Excel Parking PCN
DIR By: mkdon
Date: March 6, 2024, 5:46 am
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thanks for the tips. i just rang iceland HQ, they said they will
get manager from the store to ring me to try resolve. ive also
edited my email and sent to ceo. fingers one of them has the
decency to step in and get it overturned.
#Post#: 16907--------------------------------------------------
Re: Excel Parking PCN
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: March 6, 2024, 7:23 am
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Make sure you're prepared. Do not argue the toss about
'commercial justification', you'll be talking to someone from
the store who's probably been given a very sketchy briefing.
So, normal pleasantries such as thanks for calling, sorry to
bother you, I don't know how much you've been told etc...
And get your facts prepared and written down so you can
succinctly put them across:
A few weeks ago I parked in your car park. I had my wife with me
and as she doesn't trust me to do the shopping she went into
your store while I stayed in the car. She spent about £***, for
which I still have the receipt, and this took about 15-20
minutes.
When she returned she put the shopping in the boot while I went
to pay the parking tariff which was £1. We then left.
A week later I received a notice from Excel parking that I owed
them £100, apparently for not buying my ticket soon enough after
parking, something they call 'exceeding the consideration
period'.
We parked, we shopped and we paid for the time we were parked(in
fact twice the length of time we were parked). I thought that I
would make these points to Excel in response to their claim
which I did, but it fell upon very deaf ears. It would seem that
Excel are only concerned with their financial interests and not
those of customers or Iceland and the reputational harm their
actions could cause, given that ultimately they're threatening
to take customers to court.
Speaking to you as someone who shops at Iceland regularly, I
cannot think that you would want to be associated with this form
of practice.
What help can you give me?
Would be my approach.
By the way, where is the sign - 'at the back we have a car park
which is available for up to 1 hr', it's not visible in GSV. Was
it an Excel sign e.g. with its logo etc?
#Post#: 16910--------------------------------------------------
Re: Excel Parking PCN
DIR By: mkdon
Date: March 6, 2024, 7:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> Make sure you're prepared. Do not argue the toss about
'commercial justification', you'll be talking to someone from
the store who's probably been given a very sketchy briefing.
>
> So, normal pleasantries such as thanks for calling, sorry to
bother you, I don't know how much you've been told etc...
>
> And get your facts prepared and written down so you can
succinctly put them across:
> A few weeks ago I parked in your car park. I had my wife with
me and as she doesn't trust me to do the shopping she went into
your store while I stayed in the car. She spent about £***, for
which I still have the receipt, and this took about 15-20
minutes.
> When she returned she put the shopping in the boot while I
went to pay the parking tariff which was £1. We then left.
>
> A week later I received a notice from Excel parking that I
owed them £100, apparently for not buying my ticket soon enough
after parking, something they call 'exceeding the consideration
period'.
>
> We parked, we shopped and we paid for the time we were
parked(in fact twice the length of time we were parked). I
thought that I would make these points to Excel in response to
their claim which I did, but it fell upon very deaf ears. It
would seem that Excel are only concerned with their financial
interests and not those of customers or Iceland and the
reputational harm their actions could cause, given that
ultimately they're threatening to take customers to court.
>
> Speaking to you as someone who shops at Iceland regularly, I
cannot think that you would want to be associated with this form
of practice.
>
> What help can you give me?
>
> Would be my approach.
>
>
>
> By the way, where is the sign - 'at the back we have a car
park which is available for up to 1 hr', it's not visible in
GSV. Was it an Excel sign e.g. with its logo etc?
>
--- End Quote ---
hi
thanks for the thumbs up, i just spoke to someone from Customer
Services as Iceland, they seemed very sympathetic and agreed the
ticket should be cancelled. He also mentioned hes had many
similar cases in which the customer always won
hopefully il get a response by fri if not monday latest. he
himself made argument as you shopped here and paid there is no
reason for you to be fined and if anything we owe you a £1.
thanks for all your help guys, its been very stressful il keep
you updated with any updates. im still in shock this behaviour
is happening around the uk.
PS as for the parking sign, i cant remember exactly where it is,
all i remember was as i was driving towards to iceland i recall
seeing a sign saying parking available behind store
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