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#Post#: 16839--------------------------------------------------
Excel Parking PCN
DIR By: mkdon
Date: March 5, 2024, 10:00 am
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Hi
Can someone please help and advice me. I am absolutely being
taken for a mug by a company called Excel Parking
I had gone to some shopping at Iceland ( first time I went to
this place) and on the main road it said we have a car park at
the back which is available for up to 1hr. On entering the car
park there was no lighting and thus absolutely dark as it was
evening.
So anyway i had parked up and my wife went to Iceland and i
stayed with the kids who were asleep in the car. when my wife
got back from shopping which took around 15mins we put the
shopping away I went to the machine and entered my reg and paid
the £1. This happened on the 14th Feb
Last week (29th Feb) i got a letter saying ive received a PCN
stating i had not paid for using car park. I appealled and
showed my bank statement with the payment.
They responded to say I should have paid on arrival. They are
not given me any more opportunity to respond so ive emailed the
adjudicator which they given. I have mentioned it was pitch
black, i was there for 20mins ( according to the PCN) and
provided bank statement showing i paid £1 for parking and my
shopping bill at Icelands ( ive since found out its free parking
if you shop there)
If the parking company still reject my appeal, do i have any
reasonable grounds? I mean charging £100 because I paid my
ticket on the way out is extremely pathetic especially as there
was no visible signage. Google maps also shows there being no
lighting at the car park.
Can someone please advice what I can or should do should they
persist in trying to get money out of me.
thanks in advance
#Post#: 16840--------------------------------------------------
Re: Excel Parking PCN
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: March 5, 2024, 10:12 am
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Excel can be a rather stubborn company, and may well sue you,
but from the sounds of it you may have the makings of a sound
defence.
Firstly, using the following guide - READ THIS FIRST - Private
Parking Charges Forum guide
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/<br
/>- provide as much info as you are able, in particular, images
of
the original parking charge you received, copies of your appeal
and their response, and photos of the signage (close ups, so
that we can see the terms and conditions, and photos of their
layout and ideally lack of visibility at night).
The signage not being visible is one potential argument to
advance, although it might be made more difficult by the fact
that you paid, as you'll need to explain how you knew to pay if
there was no visible signage to draw your attention to this fact
(of course not impossible).
Another question for starters, is the car park monitored by ANPR
or wardens on foot?
#Post#: 16842--------------------------------------------------
Re: Excel Parking PCN
DIR By: mkdon
Date: March 5, 2024, 10:28 am
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Hi
Thanks for the swift response, i have no idea if its manned by
foot, i think its totally APNR, hence why i was under the
impression i needed to pay on my way out so they can charge me
accordingly.
As for how i knew to pay, on the main road it said there was
parking at the back for £1 and up to 1 hr and on my way out i
saw the machine. Basically you from a narrow alleyway and on the
left was the machine which you can only see when leaving (
unless your looking around whilst driving)
#Post#: 16843--------------------------------------------------
Re: Excel Parking PCN
DIR By: mkdon
Date: March 5, 2024, 10:34 am
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Ive attached their respond to my appeal as well as their
original PCN. Ive also screenshotted from google maps their car
park. as you can clearly see there is no lights. During the
night there is no way of able to read the signs if even you
managed to see them.
Unfortunately they wont let me access my original appeal but i
just basically said I did pay and send them the proof of
purchase. I will try obtain a close up of the signs, its not
close to where i live and had only popped in as we saw it on our
route home
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 16844--------------------------------------------------
Re: Excel Parking PCN
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: March 5, 2024, 10:55 am
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Have you spoken to Iceland yet? If not, I'd try and speak to the
manager of the store - ideally show them your receipt for
shopping, as well as the fact you paid for the parking, and that
the parking company has rejected your appeal etc., to see if
they will intervene.
The images suggest ANPR - the reason I was asking is relevant.
In a car park enforced by wardens on foot, it's reasonable to
ask motorists to pay on arrival and display a ticket, as doing
so allows the warden to check tickets and see who has and hasn't
paid, and enforcement would be impossible otherwise. In a car
park monitored entirely by ANPR however, there's seemingly no
legitimate reason to require payment in advance - all that
requiring payment in advance does is (a) Encourage over-payment,
with people paying for longer than they need to because they
have to guess how long they'll stay and (b) Increase the
opportunity for Excel to issue parking charges. You could
therefore make the argument that the charge is not 'commercially
justifiable' like the charge in ParkingEye vs Beavis
HTML https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2015-0116.html
and is
therefore an unenforceable penalty.
There's an example of a case involving a similar argument over
on PePiPoo here - Bank Park v Foster, Failure to claim free
parking
HTML http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=145315
- 'Foster'
in this case of course being Andy Foster, who is one of the
moderators on this site. The circumstances are different, as
that case involved a free parking period for which the parking
company inexplicably require motorists to obtain a ticket from a
machine, but the core argument is similar and may therefore be
useful reading.
#Post#: 16845--------------------------------------------------
Re: Excel Parking PCN
DIR By: mkdon
Date: March 5, 2024, 11:14 am
---------------------------------------------------------
yes i spoke to them but they are not very helpful, they said
they have no control over the car park. they too said Excel
Parking use cctv to issue tickets and monitor so there are no
wardens.
as Excel rejected my appeal today went to IAS and stated i
shopped at iceland and paid for ticket ( screenshotted bank
statements for both) and that its pitch dark thus unable to read
the signage.
Below is there automated response, so if Excel reject i think i
have one more throw of the dice, My main arguments will be due
to no lighitng i cant see anything and as you can only see the
paying machine when exiting it made more sense that is when you
pay. i didn try to scam or get a free parking from them. had the
signs been cleared i could have gotten it free from icelands.
Hopefully il have picture of the sign later today or on friday.
PS ive attached the view driver gets coming in from the alley
and were there machine is. As you can see the machine is out of
driver sight and only visible on looking back towards the way
you enter. add to this i came in the dark.
What happens now?
Your appeal has been sent to the parking operator so that they
can provide their account.
The Parking Operator is now provided 5 working days to upload
sufficient evidence to show that you are liable for the charge.
Once they have submitted their evidence you will be able to log
in and see it. You will then have 5 working days to respond in
one of TWO ways:
1) SUBMIT YOUR APPEAL - You can respond to the evidence by
making any representations that you consider to be relevant as
to the lawfulness of the charge any by uploading any photographs
or other evidence that you may have. Once you submit your
response it will go back to the operator who may wish to respond
or send the appeal straight to arbitration. In the case of the
operator responding, you will receive another chance to respond.
- OR -
2) REFER THE CASE STRAIGHT TO ARBITRATION - If you consider that
the information provided is not capable of showing that you are,
on the face of it, responsible for the parking charge, then you
may choose this option. The Adjudicator will assess the evidence
provided by the operator and appellant. You will not have the
opportunity of making representations and the Adjudicator will
decide, on the balance of probabilities, whether you are liable
for the parking charge.
You will be notified by email when you are able to proceed
further.
Caution: Once the operator has uploaded their evidence, if you
do not respond in one of the above two ways within 5 working
days, your appeal will be submitted to the Adjudicator WITHOUT
your response to the operators evidence that will be available
to you.
IMPORTANT:
You will receive emails from the IAS at various stages
throughout your appeal notifying you of the need to take action.
You should check regularly and ensure these emails do not end up
in junk/spam folders.
You should also log in regularly to check the status of your
appeal to ensure that you do not miss any deadlines which would
have an adverse effect on your appeal.
Yours Sincerely,
The Independent Appeals Service
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 16846--------------------------------------------------
Re: Excel Parking PCN
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: March 5, 2024, 11:21 am
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--- Quote from: mkdon link ---
>
> Below is there automated response, so if Excel reject i think
i have one more throw of the dice
>
--- End Quote ---
It's not up to Excel to reject - if you've appealed to the IAS,
it is them who make the decision, as outlined in the automated
response.
The IAS are a bit of a kangaroo court so they're almost certain
to reject.
The last 'throw of the dice' would be in court, if Excel choose
to go that far. If they do, you could seek to defend on the
issues already outlined.
#Post#: 16847--------------------------------------------------
Re: Excel Parking PCN
DIR By: mkdon
Date: March 5, 2024, 11:34 am
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--- Quote from: DWMB2 link ---
>
> [quote author=mkdon link=topic=1441.msg16845#msg16845
date=1709658893]
> Below is there automated response, so if Excel reject i think
i have one more throw of the dice
>
--- End Quote ---
It's not up to Excel to reject - if you've appealed to the IAS,
it is them who make the decision, as outlined in the automated
response.
The IAS are a bit of a kangaroo court so they're almost certain
to reject.
The last 'throw of the dice' would be in court, if Excel choose
to go that far. If they do, you could seek to defend on the
issues already outlined.
[/quote]
thanks for your help appreciate it. if IAS reject my appeal i
most likely just pay to avoid the stress. i cant believe how
desperate these guys are. they got their £1 yet hounding me like
im a criminal. this woman below seems to have had similar issue.
PS. my strongest argument is the lack of lighting, is there any
benchmark or anything they need to demonstrate that the sign was
clear? if i was to obtain picture and video evidence the signage
is only visible to read if shining a light, will that be enough
for me?
HTML https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/fuming-iceland-shopper-hit-170-7047473
#Post#: 16848--------------------------------------------------
Re: Excel Parking PCN
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: March 5, 2024, 11:48 am
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--- Quote from: mkdon link ---
>
> PS. my strongest argument is the lack of lighting
--- End Quote ---
My personal view is that the strongest argument is that the
charge is not commercially justifiable and is thus an
unenforceable penalty, although the IAS won't entertain that
anyway.
Re. signage, I'm not aware off the top of my head of any test
cases, but the phrase often used is whether or not the signage
is "there to be seen" - i.e. suitably visible that a
competent/reasonable person would be able to first notice it,
and second be able to read it.
From a quick mooch around on Google Street View, I found the
following -
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZX9SKZe4y54xm2ncA
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZX9SKZe4y54xm2ncA
HTML https://i.imgur.com/BQQnX52.png
The image is a few years old now, so the site may have changed,
but if it is the same then you'll definitely need to get your
own photos and present a compelling case for the signage not
being visible as it would appear to be directly next to the
ticket machine, which you were able to find and use
successfully. The photo also shows a large floodlight directly
next to this, so you would be wise to get photos showing that
this is not lit at night.
#Post#: 16857--------------------------------------------------
Re: Excel Parking PCN
DIR By: mkdon
Date: March 5, 2024, 1:25 pm
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Yh it may be difficult, the signage in the middle closer to
where I was parked has no lighting so this one we only saw on
our way out. however my wife does recall that there was a
delivery truck at the time which was covering the sign you
posted, also she had to turn her phone torch on to enter the reg
on machine because it was so dark.
Sorry for the daft question but what is commercial
justification. Someone on the pepipoo forum also said that is a
avenue.
Is it fool proof and does it apply to me? I imagine they will
push back on the lighting even though it was so dark we had to
use a torch and there was a truck covering sign
It's just criminal they can charge £100 for simply paying the
correct amount on leaving rather then staying. It makes no
difference to them.
If you can think of any other arguments I can use please share
as I'm at my wits end.
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