DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so ...
*****************************************************
#Post#: 17303--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock
"wrong"
DIR By: UKdave
Date: March 15, 2024, 9:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi Folks, thanks for your great advice so far, I really
appreciate it
As requested, below is a draft of my representation based on
your advice:
---------------------------------------------------------
I am in receipt of your NTO and note the contents
In her rebuttal letter to my advocate, your appeals officer
Elaine Lowe stated:
"... In this case the clock card indicated that the vehicle was
parked at 13:30 or 01:30 which indicates that the vehicle was
parked for longer than 4 hours at 12:21 when the PCN was issued"
As this is now the stated position of LCC in this case, the
contravention code is clearly incorrect
The contravention code for over staying is Code 30, which
carries a penalty of £50 ... not code 40, which carries a
penalty of £70
For these reasons the PCN was incorrectly issued on TWO of your
"specified grounds":
1) "The penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the
circumstances of the case" ~ £70 charged instead of £50
2) "There has been a procedural impropriety by the enforcement
authority" ~ PCN was issued under Code 40, instead of overstay
code 30, which Elaine Lowe clearly stated was the contravention
---------------------------------------------------------
If anyone has any suggestions or observations I would be most
appreciative. If what is written above will be good enough,
please say so & I will fill the representations form accordingly
THANK YOU
#Post#: 17317--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock
"wrong"
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: March 15, 2024, 1:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I am in receipt of your NTO and note the contents
In her rebuttal letter to my advocate, your appeals officer
Elaine Lowe stated:
A tad pompous!
I refer to your NTO dated **** and the authority's letter dated
rejecting the driver's informal representations.
Would do IMO.
But before going further, where are the initial reps? You refer
to four questions but questions are not grounds of
representation.
And IMO (and PastmyBest as I understand it) the PI is their
statement that because the PCN was issued correctly - in the
context of what the CEO observed and believed - that this
fetters the authority's discretion 'I have no alternative etc.'
Tosh.
And as the driver was wholly in the wrong* by not setting their
clock correctly, something which their informal reps apparently
rather glossed over, then observing this and accepting that a
mistake was made would not go amiss because it doesn't alter the
fundamentals.
I am making representations on the grounds of PI and that the
'penalty exceeded ...circumstances of the case', the
circumstances being as follows.
..but where are the initial reps?
#Post#: 17318--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock
"wrong"
DIR By: UKdave
Date: March 15, 2024, 1:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi HC
I appreciate your input
I now have MUCH stronger grounds than mere fettered discretion
The appeals officer went on record as saying the PCN was issued
because the car had been parked too long
That's not a code 40, its a code 30 ... and there's my PI
A second but related PI is the charge was {therefore also} wrong
But you're right, questions are not representations
FYI one of the questions was: "IF the PCN was issued ONLY on an
incorrectly set time clock, please explain how the CEO knew the
drivers disabilities do not include dyscalculia & thus they
would struggle to tell the time?"
A perfectly reasonable question, but unanswered because in
attempting to address & reply that issue they would scupper
their own case. In the end, the appeals officer did exactly that
anyway by stating the time clock indicated the car had
overstayed, a code 30, not a 40 as issued
I shall stick to the obvious TWO PI's
Thank You
#Post#: 17322--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock
"wrong"
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: March 15, 2024, 4:34 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
That's not a code 40, its a code 30 ... and there's my PI
IMO no it's not, this would be the 'contravention did not
occur'.
FYI one of the questions was: "IF the PCN was issued ONLY on an
incorrectly set time clock, please explain how the CEO knew the
drivers disabilities do not include dyscalculia & thus they
would struggle to tell the time?"
A perfectly reasonable question, but unanswered because in
attempting to address & reply that issue they would scupper
their own case.
IMO, it's a nonsense question. The CEO issued the PCN on the
basis of what they observed and was perfectly entitled to do so.
The issue of for how long arises from the authority's response,
you have no idea whether this is supported by the CEO's notes or
whether these simply recorded the objective facts i.e. the clock
showed 01.30/13.30, and the car was in contravention, as indeed
it was! If the driver suffered from the condition referred to,
then this should have been asserted in the reps in the context
of exercising discretion: however, it would not be a statutory
defence.
*- assuming of course the traffic order requires the display of
a clock and it wouldn't be the first time we've seen traffic
signs out of sync with traffic orders.
#Post#: 17323--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock
"wrong"
DIR By: UKdave
Date: March 15, 2024, 4:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your input again, I appreciate it
OK, so what IS your advice?
IF you read the entire thread you will see that
'Phantomcrusader' made the following observation:
Your badge is valid therefore the alleged contravention did not
occur. The badge and parking disc (clock) are separate entities.
I can find no regulation that says an error with the clock does
by default invalidate the badge. Most councils refer to these
regs for interpretation and as you can see a disabled badge and
parking disc have their own meanings. Ergo a badge is not a
parking disc and vice versa.
This contradicts your position that "objective facts i.e. the
clock showed 01.30/13.30, and the car was in contravention, as
indeed it was!"
I'm just looking for a consensus I can move forward with
In my humble uneducated opinion, a 100% legally parked car,
clearly showing a disabled badge, parked in a disabled bay, on a
Sunday ... is not 'in contravention' of anything. It is a FACT
that, had the car been parked in a non-disabled bay, there would
have been no contravention as the clock setting would have been
immaterial
LCC are attempting to fine a person because they correctly
parked in a disabled bay. Had they taken up a non disabled
regular bay, no action would have been taken. This is IMO
clearly punishing a disabled person for nothing more than
seeking out a disabled bay
Anyway, back to my lead question HC ...
What is your advice?
Thanks
#Post#: 17358--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock
"wrong"
DIR By: Daim456
Date: March 16, 2024, 11:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The Blue Badge parking clock is only legally required for yellow
lines only but not for time limit bay - disabled bay or not.
#Post#: 17363--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock
"wrong"
DIR By: UKdave
Date: March 16, 2024, 1:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
{I don't know why I bother starting each retort with a courteous
salutation & thanks. No one else seems to bother on here. Must
be in my nature}
OK, you wrote ...
"... as regards the CEO a valid Blue Badge was not displayed. If
it had been, then the 4-hour limit had been exceeded"
Nope
Even if the clock was set wrongly, and even if we accept the
notion such an error 'invalidates' the BB ... the 4 hour limit
had NOT been exceeded
Also, you pasted the following ...
---------------------------------------------------------
Evidence of contravention
7.—(1) A penalty charge may only be imposed in respect of a
parking contravention on the basis of—
(a)a record produced by an approved device, or
(b)information given by a civil enforcement officer as to
conduct observed by that officer
---------------------------------------------------------
In this case, the information that was 'given' by the civil
enforcement officer was contradicted by an appeals officer
You said:
CEO was entitled to consider that the driver was trying to pinch
an extra hour by setting the clock at a time later than when
they parked
The appeals officer said:
"... In this case the clock card indicated that the vehicle was
parked at 13:30 or 01:30 which indicates that the vehicle was
parked for longer than 4 hours at 12:21 when the PCN was issued"
The CEO & the appeals officer are contradicting each other, &
simply can't have it both ways
Anyway, I am [still] seeking solid constructive ADVICE please
{deep breath} Thanks for your ongoing attention, I appreciate it
#Post#: 17364--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock
"wrong"
DIR By: UKdave
Date: March 16, 2024, 1:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Daim456 link ---
>
> The Blue Badge parking clock is only legally required for
yellow lines only but not for time limit bay - disabled bay or
not.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hi there. I appreciate your input. Can you please copy & paste
the exact traffic order you are quoting?
THANK YOU
#Post#: 17376--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock
"wrong"
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: March 16, 2024, 3:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
You carry on as you will and make your reps as you want. I would
still appreciate seeing the informal reps.
#Post#: 17380--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock
"wrong"
DIR By: UKdave
Date: March 16, 2024, 4:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
>
> You carry on as you will and make your reps as you want. I
would still appreciate seeing the informal reps.
>
--- End Quote ---
Sure no problem:
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/qphof06gq8tmjrd2iir55/DCA.pdf?rlkey=7hlh11s9r49q4a847dv1hmstf&dl=0
*****************************************************
Page 2 of 4
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page