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#Post#: 16545--------------------------------------------------
Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock
"wrong"
DIR By: UKdave
Date: February 29, 2024, 12:05 pm
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Hi Folks ~
Any advice / case precedents most welcome ~
Alleged contravention date: SUNDAY 14 Jan 2024 ~
Alleged TIME of contravention: 12:21 ~
Code 40 "Parked in a designated disabled persons parking place
without clearly displaying a valid disabled persons badge" ~
Leeds City Council PCN ~
The vehicle was parked in a disabled bay, with badge & clock
showing ~
The CEO issued the PCN on the grounds the clock was wrong (It
was set to 13:30) and thus, the entire badge was "Invalid" ~
My consumer advocate made an initial representation with 4
questions (NONE of which were addressed) the final observation
the advocate made was that the bay is a dedicated disabled
space, and had the driver parked in a regular bay, the clocks
setting would have been achedemic, as the Leeds.gov website
clearly states ... ~
“With a blue badge you can park on-street for free and
without time limit at both metered and 'pay and display'
sites” ~
... and thus was being punished for parking in a disabled bay ~
HTML https://imgur.com/a/QgOtmU0
~ So this is a valid badge, displayed correctly, in a disabled
bay, on a Sunday ... but because there exists a time restriction
element, the badge clock being incorrectly set renders the
contract in breech ~
Attached & linked to here, their reply to my advocate: ~
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/4ji0p9m5gibm94dwprh9u/2938B7D6CD3A.PDF?rlkey=n1r8w1q3huinyonnsd6simxb7&dl=0
As you can see, LCC appear to be implying that rather than the
clock being set 1hr 10 mins later than ticket issue time, that
the vehicle had been parked there for 23 hours !!
NTO has now been received (Owner is not the driver)
Any advice gratefully accepted, or for further info please just
ask ~
THANK YOU
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 16610--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock
"wrong"
DIR By: Pastmybest
Date: March 1, 2024, 9:16 am
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At the end of the day the clock was wrong, but the rejection
fetters their discretion a PI that can win, and is there a need
to display a clock we need a GSV and the council photos also the
PCN and NTO i think there should be enough to win this but Leeds
are stubborn
#Post#: 16612--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock
"wrong"
DIR By: UKdave
Date: March 1, 2024, 9:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi, and thanks for your help, I really appreciate it
What is a PI?
What is a GSV?
What does "the rejection fetters their discretion" mean?
Link to PCN:
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/u6ddgendjdmy95uscskhu/PCN-Jan-2024.pdf?rlkey=6tto1ku586amgjlgh7rl2ht49&dl=0
Link to NTO:
HTML https://imgur.com/a/6t14TIz
The linked-to photos in the OP ARE the councils photos (except
the street sign indicating the time restriction, that was mine)
Thanks so much
#Post#: 16619--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock
"wrong"
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: March 1, 2024, 11:17 am
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--- Quote ---
> What is a PI?
--- End Quote ---
Procedural Impropriety - serious mistake or omission by the
Council durinmg the process of enforcement.
--- Quote ---
> What is a GSV?
--- End Quote ---
Google Street View - see
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
#Post#: 16628--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock
"wrong"
DIR By: Pastmybest
Date: March 1, 2024, 11:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The council always have the option to cancel the PCN for any
reason or just goodwill, as it is absurd that the vehicle be
left for 23 hours then a simple mistake was made and they could
accept that
so to say the PCN was issued correctly so they have no
alternative other than to enforce fetters the discretion they
have
The sign says disabled only and requires a BB but unless the TRO
(traffic regulation order requires this) and also the display of
the clock then the clock is irrelevant
Then if the TRO requires the display of the clock then the sign
must make that clear
none of the arguments are strong on there own but cumulatively
they might swing it.
They have won in the past and if an adjudicator is sympathetic
to the mistake it gives them a reason to allow an appeal
#Post#: 16629--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock
"wrong"
DIR By: UKdave
Date: March 1, 2024, 11:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Ah, OK thank you
Please forgive my ignorance
Since Google took the street view scans in March 2021, this
location has been designated as Disabled bays, as per the OP
photos, so there was / is little point in linking thru to the
'old' Google Street View, but here it is anyway:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/MVndY12tdq9iqFc39
When you say "Then if the Traffic Regulation Order requires the
display of the clock then the sign must make that clear" do you
have any examples / photos of signs that make it clear a clock
is required. I suspect LCC will simply say a clock is required
any time there is a 'time restriction' on a parking bay, as in
this case. Where can I read the TRO to the contrary?
THANK YOU
#Post#: 16653--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock
"wrong"
DIR By: Phantomcrusader
Date: March 2, 2024, 4:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
If the CEO believed you had parked for more than 4 hours the pcn
should be a code 30 "parked for longer than permitted". The bay
is a limited waiting bay albeit restricted to disabled badge
holders only. Your badge is valid therefore the alleged
contravention did not occur. The badge and parking disc (clock)
are separate entities. I can find no regulation that says an
error with the clock does by default invalidate the badge. Most
councils refer to these regs
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/683/regulation/3/made<br
/>for interpretation and as you can see a disabled badge and
parking disc have their own meanings. Ergo a badge is not a
parking disc and vice versa.
There is also an equality issue. Regular limited waiting bays
don't require the display of a clock. By making disabled people
set and display a clock is treating them different to able
bodied people who park in a regular limited waiting bay and it
creates a situation where disabled people have a higher chance
of making an error such as the clock falling off or being set
incorrectly. Timings should be based on CEO observations the
same as a regular limited waiting bay. There is no need to give
the disabled the extra burden of setting and displaying a clock.
#Post#: 16659--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock
"wrong"
DIR By: UKdave
Date: March 2, 2024, 6:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Ahhh, thank you
So let me understand this
There are several angles here but the one most likely to get a
result is a PI (the CEO put code 40 when they are now saying the
contravention was a code 30)
LCC response states:
In this case the clock card indicated that the vehicle was
parked at 13:30 or 01:30 which indicates that the vehicle was
parked for longer than 4 hours at 12:21 when the PCN was issued
Is an incorrect contravention code sufficient grounds for an
Procedural Impropriety appeal?
Thanks again ... I really appreciate your insight
#Post#: 16670--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock
"wrong"
DIR By: Phantomcrusader
Date: March 2, 2024, 10:01 am
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The code/contravention description matters here because had code
30 been used the penalty would be £50.00 and not the code 40
£70.00. the statutory ground of appeal you tick for your
represenations is "the penalty charge exceeded the amount
applicable in the circumstances of the case".
Post a draft of your representations here before sending so we
can give feedback.
#Post#: 16673--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leeds City Council PCN Sunday Disabled bay Time clock
"wrong"
DIR By: UKdave
Date: March 2, 2024, 10:17 am
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Excellent Thank You ... I will
Any other observations?
These were other points made by my advocate, which were not
addressed in LCC's response
List any & all steps currently taken by Leeds City Council to
ensure images uploaded as ‘evidence’ in ALL fine-bearing traffic
violation cases are not AI generated / altered. CEO’s are
incentivized based on PCN volume, thus we hold it is LCC’s duty
in 2024 & beyond, to ensure ANY photographic evidence supporting
a fine-bearing penalty, like a PCN, is not AI generated,
including time stamps. If no such steps are [yet] in place,
please admit that in writing
IF the PCN was issued ONLY on an incorrectly set time clock,
please explain how the CEO knew the drivers disabilities do not
include dyscalculia & thus they would struggle to tell the time
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