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#Post#: 16512--------------------------------------------------
PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
DIR By: sarahknows
Date: February 29, 2024, 8:10 am
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The PCN was for parking on paved area when the signage says
parking on paved area is not allowed (this seems to be
forbidding signage). I was barely parked as I was just unloading
a passenger, maximum 5 mins.
The notice came to the registered owner, my husband. However I
was driving.
I parked for under 5 minutes to allow my daughter (a child) to
enter the residence safely. She could not find the doorbell so I
was out of the car to ring it and then back. In total it was
less than 5 minutes.
My husband sent the first appeal making it clear the parking was
for only a few mins and the circumstances. It was rejected. I
then took over as I did not want to pay however my husband did
not want to be involved and said I must inform them to address
me as he did not want to be caught up and it affect his credit
rating etc.
HTML https://imgur.com/a/HZr7s3X
HTML https://imgur.com/a/HZr7s3X
HTML https://imgur.com/a/HZr7s3X
I have uploaded photos to show:
- the signage
- the car (it seems to have been observed for a minute)
- the correspondence from them
- both the initial appeal and the second appeal. No appeal was
submitted to IAS as I read conflicting messages suggesting it is
pointless.
I would really like to take initiative to avoid threatening
letters coming through the door as my husband will cave and pay
up and I think it is completely unfair. Is there anyway to nip
this or will I need to wait for them to take it to court?
#Post#: 16516--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: February 29, 2024, 8:39 am
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Your husband received a Notice to Keeper, yes?
He appealed. We should see this and their reply.
' I then took over as I did not want to pay however my husband
did not want to be involved and said I must inform them to
address me as he did not want to be caught up and it affect his
credit rating etc.'.
You cannot 'take over', you have no standing - yet.
All your husband can do is to appeal to POPLA or name you as
driver.
Barring stupidity or a bizarre set of postal anomalies,
including you moving address, this process would not affect
anyone's credit rating.
#Post#: 16524--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
DIR By: guest46
Date: February 29, 2024, 9:10 am
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Can't zoom the images enough - do the time stamps on the images
proivided to you match the <5 minutes you were there? did you
return later to collect the child and park again maybe?
#Post#: 16525--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
DIR By: sarahknows
Date: February 29, 2024, 9:26 am
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It was a Notice to Keeper.
The last 2 pages of the link are in relation to the first appeal
from my husband and then the second appeal from me advising them
to not contact my husband anymore and address me.
The images shared with me as evidence only show 2 minutes of
observation. 17.19 to 17.20, you can see in the last minute the
driver is getting back into the car so left immediately after.
I might have come back later but would not necessarily have
parked in exactly the same place as I would have had to get out
of the car for collection. Also the images only show the period
around 17.19, there are no images of another period. The sign is
very forbidding and does not appear to allow any parking on
paved areas.
#Post#: 16527--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
DIR By: b789
Date: February 29, 2024, 9:34 am
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Photos show 42 seconds of parking. 17:19:41 to 17:20:23
NtK is not PoFa compliant as 9(2)(e)(ii) requires that the NtK
must invite the keeper to pass the NtK to the driver.
Only a judge will settle this and a valid defence is Jopson v
Homeguard where on appeal, it was decided that loading and
unloading is not parking.
Unless the transfer of liability was completed in the correct
manner, the keeper, your husband, is still the only person they
will deal with. It is a pity that your husband is prepared to
throw you under the bus.
For now, your husband needs to formally transfer liability to
yourself as the driver using their tear-off form on the back of
the NtK if he wants to be rid of anything to do with it. You
then, as the admitted driver, will need to handle it.
You are dealing with a firm of ex-clamper thugs who care about
nothing except getting your hard earned cash off you. This firm
are an IPC member and so POPLA is not an option and their IAS
appeals service is a kangaroo court and not worth the effort of
dealing with.
#Post#: 16529--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
DIR By: sarahknows
Date: February 29, 2024, 9:42 am
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They have invited the keeper to provide the name and address of
the driver in the 5th paragraph second bullet.
#Post#: 16530--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
DIR By: b789
Date: February 29, 2024, 9:52 am
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Please have a read of PoFA 9(2)(e)(ii) which states as follows:
[The notice must] state that the creditor does not know both the
name of the driver and a current address for service for the
driver and invite the keeper—
(i)to pay the unpaid parking charges; or
(ii)if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify
the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for
service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;
The NtK does not mention anything about passing the notice to
the driver.
However, this is a moot point as the driver has now been
identified and is liable. It would have been a valid point if
your husband hadn't decided to throw you under the bus.
As you have now passed the appeals process, you need to be
prepared to weather a storm of useless debt collector letters
which are designed to get low hanging fruit on the gullible tree
to capitulate and pay into the scam. You will need to protect
your husband from these. Unless you receive a Letter of Claim
(loC) or similar worded letter giving you 30 days to pay or face
a claim, there is nothing you can do.
They may never bother to actually go that far. However, you are
dealing with a very greedy scammer who is likely to try it on in
the hope that you will give in and pay up rather than defend a
claim.
#Post#: 16534--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
DIR By: sarahknows
Date: February 29, 2024, 10:14 am
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Thanks so much. Sounds like there is no alternative apart from
waiting for the threatening letters.
If they do take this to court what would be my defence? Will I
need a solicitor etc or will I be able to handle this with all
the help of you helpful people and chatGPT ;)
To be fair to my husband he just doesnt want the hassle and
wanted to just pay up. He is the exact target for these type of
threatening letters.
#Post#: 16540--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: February 29, 2024, 10:51 am
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second appeal from me advising them to not contact my husband
anymore and address me.
They should ignore, this matter has nothing to do with you. Your
husband could name you as driver or authorise you in writing to
act on his behalf and then you could if you want name yourself.
If they do take this to court what would be my defence. None,
because until they write to you in your name then you won't have
to defend anything.
Be clear. Until they write to you with a demand for payment then
it is your husband as keeper who they would apparently hold
liable - but whether successfully would depend upon whether the
'not PoFA compliant' argument would win in court.
You cannot unilaterally interject yourself into these
proceedings.
#Post#: 16541--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN (PCM ltd) for parking on paved area when not allowed
DIR By: b789
Date: February 29, 2024, 11:11 am
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If your husband is not prepared to defend this then there are
only a few option.
1. Husband pays into the scam, is marked as a "mug" for future
reference, your family is £100 out of pocket and hopefully that
is the end of the matter.
2. You husband transfers liability to you as advised above and
you can then defend the PCN.
3. Do nothing and risk getting a CCJ by default.
You appear to much too sensible for option #3 and you are made
of sterner stuff than your husband. So, ideally, option #2 is
your best bet.
If this ever reaches a court, it is easy to defend. No solicitor
is required and there are some solicitors on here who will be
giving advice.
The "threatening letters" are just debt collector letters and
you need to understand that they are powerless to do anything.
They are a third party to the contract that has allegedly been
breached. They usually work on a no-win, no-fee basis by using
scary words such as "CCJ" and "bailiff". You can safely ignore
them.
You defence would rely on many points and there is a template
defence which you only have to edit one or two paragraphs. You
would include Jopson v Homegard and if you need some seductive
bedtime reading, have a look at it here:
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ezhkj6epu66l1r/JOPSON-V-HOMEGUARD-2906J-Approved.pdf?dl=0
It is an appeal judgment and so is persuasive on the lower
court. The main point in that judgment is the fact that loading
and unloading is not considered to be parking. There may be
other cases that could be referenced but we can cross that
bridge when we come to it.
Defending this would e a valuable life lesson. Unfortunately,
our education system does nothing to teach anyone some basic
facts that would assist them in understanding civil law. It
never ceases to amaze me how many people have absolutely no
understanding of what a CCJ is or how it can affect you.
Considering most people will come across something like this at
some point in their lives, the fact that nothing is taught about
it, even at a basic level (or at least it wasn't when I was a
lad) is astounding.
You will receive assistance and advice should this progress to a
claim. It is nothing to be feared and and is just a process that
needs to be understood.
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