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#Post#: 16481--------------------------------------------------
Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
DIR By: syd16
Date: February 28, 2024, 2:06 pm
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Another PCN received from Redbridge council for entering and
stopping in a Yellow Box Junction.
I was turning left into Horns Road and as the traffic moved I
thought I had enough space to enter and exit the YBJ. Admittedly
the rear right tyre is still in the box as I stopped behind
traffic but most of my car is out and seems a bit harsh since I
am not affecting the flow of traffic which is the purpose of the
YBJ.
Any grounds for appeal?
Council video:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcIjmFe4fiY
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcIjmFe4fiY
PCN:
[attachimg=1]
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 16482--------------------------------------------------
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: February 28, 2024, 2:15 pm
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Looks like a pretty good worked example in a training session
for adjudicators of what de minimisin a box junction means ! The
PCN is money-grubbing PCN we see far too often. However the
council, venal and rapacious as ever, are unlikely to give way,
so you'd have to take them to London Tribunals and risk the full
PCN penalty. And as de minimis is subjective, (no definition of
it, you just know it when you see it), you could well lose.
#Post#: 16483--------------------------------------------------
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: February 28, 2024, 3:43 pm
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The whole PCN please.
#Post#: 16487--------------------------------------------------
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
DIR By: MrChips
Date: February 28, 2024, 5:39 pm
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You weren't committing an offence if there was enough room for
you to move forward a few inches and clear the box. Due to the
level of glare in the video it's very hard to confirm if you
could or couldn't have done this. As well as de minimis I'd
also challenge on this ground.
#Post#: 16904--------------------------------------------------
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
DIR By: syd16
Date: March 6, 2024, 6:42 am
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Thanks for the replies.
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> Looks like a pretty good worked example in a training session
for adjudicators of what de minimisin a box junction means ! The
PCN is money-grubbing PCN we see far too often. However the
council, venal and rapacious as ever, are unlikely to give way,
so you'd have to take them to London Tribunals and risk the full
PCN penalty. And as de minimis is subjective, (no definition of
it, you just know it when you see it), you could well lose.
--- End Quote ---
OK, I agree it's harsh and it's a cash cow for the council but
just wanted to know if it's worth the risk of paying out the
full penalty. Any previous experience of such de minimis cases
and whether it's been won at Tribunal?
--- Quote from: Hippocrates link ---
>
> The whole PCN please.
>
--- End Quote ---
Attached below.
--- Quote from: MrChips link ---
>
> You weren't committing an offence if there was enough room for
you to move forward a few inches and clear the box. Due to the
level of glare in the video it's very hard to confirm if you
could or couldn't have done this. As well as de minimis I'd
also challenge on this ground.
>
--- End Quote ---
Sorry a bit unclear on this argument. Are you saying that if
there was room in front me to move into but I am still
stationary in the YBJ then does that mean I wouldn't be
committing an offence?
For a de minimis challenge, what would I state as my reasons for
challenging the PCN, is there a template I can use?
Thanks,
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 18276--------------------------------------------------
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: March 25, 2024, 4:30 pm
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[member=831]syd16[/member] we need the PCN number and number
plate in order to give proper advice.
#Post#: 18370--------------------------------------------------
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
DIR By: syd16
Date: March 26, 2024, 11:05 am
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PCN: AF98214426
REG: YD22 FVH
#Post#: 18695--------------------------------------------------
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: March 31, 2024, 3:25 pm
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Well we could have tried something with this but as you've paid
it's too late.
#Post#: 18717--------------------------------------------------
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
DIR By: syd16
Date: March 31, 2024, 6:06 pm
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It’s a lease car and the leasing company automatically paid the
charge but said I can still appeal within the timeframe (which
has now passed) but I didn’t get a response here in time so
didn’t bother.
#Post#: 18740--------------------------------------------------
Re: Yellow Box Junction - Ilford - Horns Road
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: March 31, 2024, 8:19 pm
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--- Quote from: syd16 link ---
>
> It’s a lease car and the leasing company automatically paid
the charge but said I can still appeal within the timeframe
(which has now passed) but I didn’t get a response here in time
so didn’t bother.
>
--- End Quote ---
[member=831]syd16[/member] it doesn't work like that, by paying
the penalty the lease company has removed your right to appeal.
The lease company may well say that you can still appeal, but
that's because they're morons and have no idea how any of this
works: once the penalty is paid the council can laugh all the
way to the bank and any challenges go straight in the bin.
It's a pity as we can pretty much beat 99% of lease car cases.
If it's a personal lease you can force them to take the hit on
this, as depriving you of the right to appeal by paying the
penalty is a breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015. I'm happy
to help you with that if you'd like to pursue it.
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