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#Post#: 16445--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - PCN - Luton Airport - Dropping off outside
designated area - Feb 2024
DIR By: Nosy Parker
Date: February 28, 2024, 4:36 am
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Not undermined. Just added unnecessary clutter.
There is no obligation to tell a private company the life story
of any passenger
#Post#: 17875--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - PCN - Luton Airport - Dropping off outside
designated area - Feb 2024
DIR By: almep13
Date: March 20, 2024, 4:28 pm
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Good evening,
APCOA has responded to the appeal by rejecting and providing the
POPLA verification number.
They don't seem to have considered the POFA point at all. I
attach the link for your kind views on how to proceed. Does the
appeal to POPLA needs to be more elaborate than the original to
APCOA?
HTML https://ibb.co/8K5T828
Thank you in advance for your assistance.
Kind Regards,
Almep13
#Post#: 17880--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - PCN - Luton Airport - Dropping off outside
designated area - Feb 2024
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: March 20, 2024, 5:13 pm
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--- Quote from: almep13 link ---
>
> Does the appeal to POPLA needs to be more elaborate than the
original to APCOA?
>
--- End Quote ---
Elaborate? Not necessarily. More thorough? Probably. You needn't
write chapter and verse, but it's wise to make the points as
explicit as you can with POPLA, to leave the assessor with as
little room for misinterpretation as possible.
I'd personally recommend structuring your POPLA appeal into
headings (ideally numbered for ease). For example:
- APCOA have not shown that the appellant is the driver
allegedly liable for the charge - here you can make clear that
APCOA do not know who the driver of the vehicle was, no
information has been provided to APCOA as to the identity of the
driver, and that the assessor should therefore be considering
whether you are liable for the charge as the registered keeper
of the vehicle, which leads onto #2
- Luton Airport is not 'Relevant Land' for the purposes of
Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act - explain here that
parking companies can only make use of PoFA to recover charges
from the keeper on 'Relevant Land' - set out how PoFA defines
relevant land, and how, by that definition, where the car was
parked is not relevant land. As such, they cannot recover the
charge from you as the keeper, and your appeal should be upheld
- APCOA have not issued a Notice to Keeper in accordance with
Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act - here you can
explain that even if Luton Airport were relevant land, which is
denied, APCOA still would not be able to recover the charges
from you as the registered keeper, as they have not issued a
notice that complies with the requirements of Paragraph 9 of
PoFA. There's a fair argument that this point is moot - Schedule
4 of PoFA doesn't apply on non-relevant land, so they couldn't
have issued a notice that did comply with paragraph 9 anyway,
without misrepresenting their position. That said, I'd
personally lean towards including it in the "even if..." format
I suggested, just in case the assessor wrongly decided that the
airport was relevant land
I wouldn't make any mention at all of the 'mitigating
circumstances' you included in the initial appeal - don't
include anything that could distract the assessor's attention
away from the solid appeal points.
#Post#: 17886--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - PCN - Luton Airport - Dropping off outside
designated area - Feb 2024
DIR By: almep13
Date: March 20, 2024, 5:50 pm
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Thanks a lot DWMB2 for the prompt response. I shall draft a
response and put it here for comments before submitting it to
POPLA.
Kind regards,
Almep13
#Post#: 17890--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - PCN - Luton Airport - Dropping off outside
designated area - Feb 2024
DIR By: b789
Date: March 20, 2024, 8:35 pm
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You should also appeal about the signage that breaches the BPA
Code of Practice where it fails to bring to the attention of
drivers about the charge for breach of contract until after the
driver has no option but to have entered into the agreement by
conduct.
Search for the BPA CoP online and have a look at the signage
requirements .
#Post#: 17896--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - PCN - Luton Airport - Dropping off outside
designated area - Feb 2024
DIR By: The Rookie
Date: March 21, 2024, 3:15 am
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--- Quote from: almep13 link ---
>
> APCOA has responded to the appeal by rejecting and providing
the POPLA verification number.
>
--- End Quote ---
The penalty for going 'off script'.
APCOA recognise the standard appeal, and know they are wasting
their time by taking it further, by adding irrelevant flutter
you gave them hope you'd mess up at POPLA so now you have the
hassle of submitting a much more complex POPLA appeal.
Look at other recent POPLA appeals about PoFA and you'll see the
level of detail required, you need one based around 'relevant
land' so a train station or airport, their won't be many as the
correct first appeal is so effective.
Post here for review BEFORE sending this time.
#Post#: 17898--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - PCN - Luton Airport - Dropping off outside
designated area - Feb 2024
DIR By: b789
Date: March 21, 2024, 3:47 am
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You should also point out in your POPLA appeal that the operator
has been mendacious in its rejection where it states: “...no
stopping is allowed at any time to drop off, pick up or for any
other reason.” Go and search for the airport byelaws where you
can evidence that there is no such stipulation about “stopping
for any other reason”.
As already mentioned (and ignored), mention of any mitigating
circumstances is futile and has obviously caused you more work
to get this cancelled.
#Post#: 18000--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - PCN - Luton Airport - Dropping off outside
designated area - Feb 2024
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: March 21, 2024, 4:30 pm
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I suggest you start where the assessor will start: is the DRIVER
liable for a parking charge?
Sorry to step out of line, but because 'PoFA does not apply on
land covered by bylaws such as at airports and railway stations'
does not mean you start with KEEPER liability, because this
misses out a step and it's the assessor's first question i.e. is
the driver liable for a parking charge?
Is the driver liable for a parking charge?
If the land is not 'relevant land' then there cannot be any
driver liability for a parking charge arising under a breach of
a presumed contract, this follows because land which is not
'relevant land' must fall into one of these prescribed
categories, namely:
(a)a highway maintainable at the public expense (within the
meaning of section 329(1) of the Highways Act 1980);
(b)a parking place which is provided or controlled by a traffic
authority;
(c)any land (not falling within paragraph (a) or (b)) on which
the parking of a vehicle is subject to statutory control.
In the cases of (a) and (b) the enforcement function falls to an
enforcement authority, which cannot be a private company as
here, and their remedy is a 'penalty charge' not 'parking
charge'.
In the case of (c), the remedy for an offence cannot be a
parking charge but may be a penalty or prosecution.
Therefore, if the land is not 'relevant land' there cannot be
any driver liability for a 'parking charge' of the type at issue
here and therefore the creditor's case falls.
Then your argument about the status of the land.....
By all means then follow with 'if the assessor believes that the
land is 'relevant land' and that the DRIVER might be liable for
the parking charge, then the issue for the assessor is whether
the creditor has complied with the strict provisions of ******
PoFA and is thereby permitted to hold the keeper liable.
However, given that the Notice to Keeper ******** it must surely
be the case that driver liability cannot be transferred to the
keeper and therefore, irrespective of the driver's liability, I
invite the assessor to instruct the creditor to cease taking
further action against me as KEEPER. If they believe that their
case is sound, in other words that the land is 'relevant land'
and that the driver breached a contract term which gave rise to
their liability to a parking charge then I am neutral as to
whether and how they pursue the driver who, I repeat, was not
me.
Others will have views, but it must be the case that if whether
the land is 'relevant land' is at issue then the argument must
start with the creditor's right to hold the driver liable in the
first instance and not leap to whether the keeper is liable.
There will be views, I'm sure!
#Post#: 18016--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - PCN - Luton Airport - Dropping off outside
designated area - Feb 2024
DIR By: almep13
Date: March 21, 2024, 6:18 pm
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Good evening [member=428]H C Andersen[/member],
[member=26]b789[/member], [member=82]The Rookie[/member],
Thank you for you valuable opinions, I appreciate your time and
knowledge and apologies for late response.
Your comments have really been eye opening for me on this
subject. I'm glad I did approach the forum rather than take the
easy out, but painful, option of paying the requested charge.
I'm feeling more confident.
I'll be doing my research based on your suggestions and draft
the appeal to POPLA to share it here before submitting to avoid
adding unnecessary details and capturing the real points that
can sway the assessor.
Thank you once again to you all for your time and have a good
night.
Kind Regards,
Almep13
#Post#: 18027--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - PCN - Luton Airport - Dropping off outside
designated area - Feb 2024
DIR By: b789
Date: March 21, 2024, 7:59 pm
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Personal experience and assisting well over 50 other successful
APCOA appeals at Heathrow, I can assure you that if the basic
appeal that was originally recommended had been used, APCOA
would have cancelled the PCN.
APCOA do not take single PCN cases to court. Even if they win at
POPLA, they never go beyond the DRA phase. Hence the claim that
they are benign.
POPLA assessors are not legal gurus. They are at best
paralegals. They make mistakes in interpreting the law.
The best approach to a successful POPLA appeal is to assume it
is the tea-boy assessing your appeal. You have to lead them
carefully through your appeal points.
Whilst H C Andersen approaches this with an exclusively legal
mindset, my worry would be that making the core issue about
whether the driver is liable or not distracts from the very
simple fact that, irrespective of who was driving, the keeper
simply cannot be liable.
The original appeal wording as was suggested, has worked for me,
over 50 times and many more times for others who I know
assisting others. Not having to go through the POPLA process,
where we have seen them completely misinterpret PoFA more than a
few times and are continually having to “retrain” their
assessors in the correlation of PoFA and “non-relevant land, is
an added hurdle that was not necessary as APCOA failed to
address or even mention the core point about keeper liability.
The NtK says the driver is liable. APCOA do not know the
identity of the driver. The keeper is invited to pay the charge
or identify the driver and pass it on to them. There is no legal
obligation for the keeper to identify the driver and no
assumptions or inference can be made that the keeper was the
driver.
Whether or not the driver could be liable for an invoice from a
private parking company on land that is under statutory control
is not the point. The keeper has received the invoice and APCOA
cannot rely on any interpretation of the law, PoFA or otherwise,
to hold the keeper liable for the alleged debt.
At the end of the day, whether you don’t bother with POPLA or if
you are unsuccessful, it will not matter. APCOA will not take a
single PCN to court. Have fun learning the process and let’s see
what you come up with for your POPLA appeal.
One other point, the POPLA code actually lasts for 32 days even
though they tell you it’s 28.
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