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#Post#: 16337--------------------------------------------------
APCOA - PCN - Luton Airport - Dropping off outside designated
area - Feb 2024
DIR By: almep13
Date: February 26, 2024, 6:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hello Forum members,
I hope you are all well and thank you in advance for taking the
time to read this post.
I have left it late posting this in this forum, as I was
struggling to find the site, because I was browsing the
FightBack Forum in the old Pepipoo forum/ platform. But thanks
to fellow "cp7859" who kindly had pointed out to me the new site
many months ago, I'm here on this new platform.
I am attaching a PCN from APCOA alleging Dropping off or picking
up outside designated area at Luton Airport opposite Mid-Term
Car Park, which it has a 15 min free drop off/ pick up.
The driver had a disabled passenger, whose details can be backed
up by Blue Badge card and who was feeling sick (about to throw
up) and really unwell exacerbated by sudden anxiety and panic
attack requiring to get off the car immediately.
The car stopped for 8-10 seconds to assist the disabled
passenger in such unforeseen circumstance and few seconds later
the driver stopped by the traffic marshal (probably 5-10 meters
away from the stopping point) to ask for guidance of the near
toilet or assistance point for the disabled passenger.
Apparently this was a genuine emergency and unforeseen situation
and the driver had no need to drop of the passenger there if it
weren't for such situation, because the Mid-Term car park, which
offers 15 minutes free for dropping off/ picking up passengers,
was nearby (opposite as indicated in the PCN as well).
In addition to the 15 min free drop off/ pick up option, the car
had also pre-paid parking at Luton Airport.
I am attaching the links to the redacted pictures (mindful that
attaching pictures may use more storage than the links).
HTML https://ibb.co/J3gvmVk
HTML https://ibb.co/Wy15g3f
Few questions please.
1. What is/ are the line/s of defense in this case?
2. I believe the appeal must be submitted within 14 days of the
date of issue of the notice in order to be with the option of
paying the reduced rate if the appeal is rejected by APCOA. Is
my assumption right please?
3. The list below outlines the options for the appeal. Which one
needs to be selected please for the appeal considering that the
system in place allows only one selection - ii, iv (although
this seems strange as my interpretation of this is that APCOA
claims that the Keeper and Driver are the same person - probably
my interpretation is wrong, but I thought I'll just mention it
here), v or vii (although v and vii may be used as mitigating
circumstances)?
i. My vehicle was stolen
ii. The contravention did not occur
iii. The amount specified on the notice is incorrect
iv. I was not the Registered Keeper/Driver at the time of the
contravention
v. Mitigating circumstances prevented me from parking correctly
vi. My vehicle has been cloned
vii. Other
Grateful for your views.
Kind regards,
Almep13
#Post#: 16339--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - PCN - Luton Airport - Dropping off outside
designated area - Feb 2024
DIR By: Nosy Parker
Date: February 26, 2024, 6:51 pm
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Leave the driver out of the appeals process. The keeper should
appeal and should forget the “discount” as the keeper won’t be
paying a penny. But don’t delay beyond the 14 days if you don’t
need to.
Appeal online selecting “other” as follows:
“I appeal as keeper. I am not obliged to identify the driver and
I decline to do so.
You cannot hold me liable as keeper as Luton Airport is not
‘relevant land’ as defined in Schedule 4 to the Protection of
Freedoms Act 2012.
Please cancel the notice to keeper or issue a POPLA code so
POPLA can order you to cancel it”
#Post#: 16340--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - PCN - Luton Airport - Dropping off outside
designated area - Feb 2024
DIR By: b789
Date: February 26, 2024, 7:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
In civil law, the driver and the keeper are separate legal
entities. APCOA have no idea who the driver is. The NtK invites
you, the keeper, to pay the charge or pass it on to the driver
and for you to identify him/her. They cannot infer that the
keeper is also the driver. Only if the keeper admits to being
the driver can they pursue you, as the driver.
APCOA are an unregulated private parking company with no
authority to do anything other than make a request. This is a
matter of civil law.
As explained above by @Nosey Parker, your appeal as the keeper
and refusal to provide the identity of the driver will be the
end of the matter because they cannot rely on PoFA to transfer
liability from the driver to the keeper because PoFA does not
apply on land covered by bylaws such as at airports and railway
stations.
With the appeal shown above, you will get a response from APCOA
telling you you are naughty for not obeying their silly/futile
rules but they forgive you this time and don’t do it again.
#Post#: 16361--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - PCN - Luton Airport - Dropping off outside
designated area - Feb 2024
DIR By: almep13
Date: February 27, 2024, 5:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Nosy Parker and b789,
Thank you for taking your time to look at my post and your
valuable comments, I appreciate it.
I shall put it on the forum once the appeal is submitted,
hopefully, later this evening.
Thank you once again and kind regards,
Almep13
#Post#: 16365--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - PCN - Luton Airport - Dropping off outside
designated area - Feb 2024
DIR By: b789
Date: February 27, 2024, 6:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I have personally appealed twice to APCOA for NtKs received for
not paying the rip drop-off fee at Heathrow. Below is the appeal
exactly as submitted each time.
--- Quote ---
> Re PCN: XXXXXXXXX
> VRM: nnNNnnn
> Date of issue: DD mmm YYYY
>
> I am the registered keeper. I refuse your invitation to
identify the driver. As you cannot rely on PoFA to transfer
liability from the driver to the keeper, APCOA have no hope at
POPLA. You are urged to save us both a complete waste of time
and cancel the PCN.
>
> APCOA cannot hold the registered keeper liable. As a matter of
fact and law, APCOA (as a longstanding BPA Parking operator)
will be well aware that they cannot use the PoFA provisions
because this is not 'relevant land'. If the Airport wanted to
hold owners or keepers liable under Airport Byelaws, that would
be within the landowner's gift and another matter entirely, but
not only is that not pleaded, it is also not legally possible
because APCOA is not the Airport owner and your 'parking charge'
is not and never attempts to be a penalty. It is created for
APCOA’s own profit (as opposed to a byelaws penalty that goes to
the public purse) and APCOA has relied on contract law
allegations of breach against the driver only. The registered
keeper cannot be presumed to have been the driver, nor pursued
under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency.
--- End Quote ---
I uploaded the above as a pdf file and selected "other".
#Post#: 16369--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - PCN - Luton Airport - Dropping off outside
designated area - Feb 2024
DIR By: almep13
Date: February 27, 2024, 6:56 am
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Hi b789,
Thanks for letting me know. Yes, I did read your comments in
other posts last night when I searched for APCOA before I
submitted my post. I have earmarked them as point of reference,
as I found the argument useful and applicable to the case in
question.
Thanks and regards,
Almep13
#Post#: 16420--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - PCN - Luton Airport - Dropping off outside
designated area - Feb 2024
DIR By: almep13
Date: February 27, 2024, 4:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hello,
I did submit the appeal and hopefully APCOA will see sense and
cancel the PCN. With thanks to b789 and Nosy Parker and similar
comments in other posts, the text below is what I included in
the appeal.
"This Parking Charge Notice ("PCN") was issued to me as the
registered keeper of the vehicle, and I am appealing as such.
Luton Airport (including the drop-off zone and its surroundings)
is not “relevant land” for the purposes of Schedule 4 of the
Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (as it is covered by airport
bye-laws), so the operator cannot transfer liability to the
keeper. Furthermore, even if (which is not the case) the drop
off zone is relevant land, the PCN does not comply with the
requirements of the POFA, Schedule 4, paragraph 9. As there is
no legal requirement for the registered keeper to identify the
driver, I will not be doing so.
APCOA cannot hold the registered keeper liable. As a matter of
fact and law, APCOA (as a longstanding BPA Parking operator)
will be well aware that they cannot use the PoFA provisions
because this is not 'relevant land'. If the Airport wanted to
hold owners or keepers liable under Airport Byelaws, that would
be within the landowner's gift and another matter entirely, but
not only is that not pleaded, it is also not legally possible
because APCOA is not the Airport owner and your 'parking charge'
is not and never attempts to be a penalty. It is created for
APCOA’s own profit (as opposed to a byelaws penalty that goes to
the public purse) and APCOA has relied on contract law
allegations of breach against the driver only. The registered
keeper cannot be presumed to have been the driver, nor pursued
under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency.
In addition to the above, there are also mitigating
circumstances according to the passenger, xxx, who is disabled
as per Blue Badge pictures attached and needed an emergency stop
due to feeling really sick and unwell despite being aware that
the drop-off zone at Mid-Term Car Park was only metres away from
the alleged location of contravention.
Considering the above I look forward to your confirmation that
the charge has been cancelled. If you choose to decline this
appeal, you must issue a POPLA code."
Thank you and regards,
Almep13
#Post#: 16436--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - PCN - Luton Airport - Dropping off outside
designated area - Feb 2024
DIR By: Nosy Parker
Date: February 28, 2024, 3:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
There was no need to embellish a correct appeal with an
irrelevance about mitigating circumstances. That simply provides
an opportunity for the PPC to cloud the issue and confuse any
subsequent POPLA assessor. PPCs never cancel for mitigating
circumstances and POPLA assessors (if it goes that far) are
easily confused and also never cancel for mitigating
circumstances.
Still what’s done is done and APCOA may indeed pretend to cancel
on compassionate grounds. Though of course the real reason is
they know they can’t enforce airport PCNs against keepers
#Post#: 16437--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - PCN - Luton Airport - Dropping off outside
designated area - Feb 2024
DIR By: b789
Date: February 28, 2024, 3:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I will place odds that you will receive the the following
response from APCOA:
--- Quote ---
> Thank you for your letter received on dad mmm yyyy regarding
the above Parking Charge Notice (PCN).
>
> Thank you for your recent correspondence in relation to the
above-mentioned Parking Charge Notice.
>
> In your appeal you have explained that you are the registered
keeper of the vehicle and declined the invitation to provide us
with the full name and address of the driver.
>
> On this occasion, we will waiver this PCN as a goodwill
gesture, but must inform you that the terms and conditions in
this location advise the driver that they must pay for each
visit to the site. Signage is displayed at the approach to this
drop off area, along the location and upon exit, advising all
motorists that a payment to use the drop off area is required to
be made online or by phone.
>
> As stated above, the terms and conditions of using the
drop-off zones are displayed by way of clear signage. It is the
responsibility of the motorist to read and comply with the
signage on site.
>
> Yours sincerely,
--- End Quote ---
Or at least it would have been if the OP hadn’t included the
mitigation bit.
#Post#: 16444--------------------------------------------------
Re: APCOA - PCN - Luton Airport - Dropping off outside
designated area - Feb 2024
DIR By: almep13
Date: February 28, 2024, 4:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Good morning and thank you [member=634]Nosy Parker[/member] and
[member=26]b789[/member] for your comments.
I was contemplating not to include the mitigating circumstances,
but then decided to include it to avoid situation where the PPC
and/or POPLA claims that such information was omitted.
Let's see how it goes and I hope I haven't undermined my case.
Thank you and regards,
Almep13
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