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#Post#: 25--------------------------------------------------
Hounslow Council - 34 Being in a Bus Lane
DIR By: efunc
Date: June 14, 2023, 6:34 pm
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Hi Folks,
here are some of the contents of the thread I originally posted
on pepipoo on 20/03/23:
HTML http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=149091&st=20&gopid=1778019
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Hello, I would welcome some advice on this please. London
Borough of Hounslow have issued us a PCN for the contravention
of "Being in a Bus Lane".
The bus lane in question is on Chiswick High Road, a short bus
lane along which are situated 3 Parking and Loading bays. You
cannot park in these bays without crossing said Bus Lane. Our
vehicle is photographed having tried to park in the first bay
and then spotting a more suitable space in the adjoining bay and
so maneuvering to the next spot. Loading is permitted "Mon-Sat,
7am - 7pm, 20 mins, No return within 1 hour". I realise that
this is not a parking fine, however we parked for 10 mins to
enter the shop opposite the bay to return an item, and have the
receipt for the transaction, dated and timestamped.
Are there any grounds to contest this based on the fact that we
were simply trying to access the loading bay not drive along a
bus lane? We had absolutely no other reason to be in the bus
lane as it can clearly be seen that the high road we were
actually driving along was completely clear anyway!
longitude: -0.26811 latitude: 51.49296
HTML https://i.ibb.co/5sFghYp/pcn3.jpg
HTML https://i.ibb.co/SQJNrx1/pcn2.jpg
HTML https://i.ibb.co/bv5yDMW/chiswick-h-rd-1.png
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Schofeldt
Fri, 31 Mar 2023 - 13:16
Post #21
Just wait for the Enforcement Notice. If they wish to go to the
5th set, that is their problem. As ever, if I represent anyone
re a London Bus lane PCN and lose at the Tribunal, I will pay
£65 towards it. What a liberty!
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efunc
post Fri, 31 Mar 2023 - 22:53
Post #22
I see, so you advise making a formal representation using the
Enforcement Notice form? Would I just resubmit the original
representation already sent to them? Presumably this is also
decided by the council, and would then have to be appealed.
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Schofeldt
post Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 01:28
Post #23
Depends how you want to play it. I would send something stronger
next time and to the point.
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efunc
post Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 03:16
Post #24
Understood, I'll see what I can do. It was my partner driving, I
was just the passenger. Like most people she is strongly
deterred following the first setback would prefer to settle up
right now, but I'll try to convince her to persevere.
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Schofeldt
post Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 07:58
Post #25
Trust us! If she settles now, she will join The Mugged Club.
This is their game. If she continues and fights, the VCA
certificate will be found to be invalid.
This should convince her:
HTML http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t=#entry1768834
Question: why do you think they have applied for new
certificates?
Answer: so that the new certificates satisfy the criterion of
admissibility of evidence at the Tribunal.
We have just successfully got a Greenwich PCN cancelled before
the Tribunal stage.
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cp8759
post Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 15:22
Post #26
QUOTE (efunc @ Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 03:16) *
--- Quote ---
> Understood, I'll see what I can do. It was my partner driving,
I was just the passenger. Like most people she is strongly
deterred following the first setback would prefer to settle up
right now, but I'll try to convince her to persevere.
--- End Quote ---
This is what councils count on. Take the key decision in Davy
Duthieuw v London Borough of Ealing listed here:
HTML https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/key-cases
I found out during the proceedings that Ealing council had
issued 13 PCNs on the day, and only Mr Duthieuw appealed,
everyone else paid. So basically as the PCNs were all invalid,
the first 12 people got mugged. Ask your partner if she wants to
join the mugged club, or the savvy Davy club.
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Schofeldt
post Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 15:27
Post #27
I have been thinking a lot about this appalling attitude. Is it
ignorance? Or is it wilful maladministration? All I do know is
that we have had 100% success as it concerns a fundamental point
of law. I reckon between cp and me we have scored over 50
successes so far. His ca. double mine. And there are more in the
pipeline.
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efunc
post Sun, 7 May 2023 - 00:10
Post #28
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 1 Apr 2023 - 14:22) *
--- Quote ---
> I found out during the proceedings that Ealing council had
issued 13 PCNs on the day, and only Mr Duthieuw appealed,
everyone else paid. So basically as the PCNs were all invalid,
the first 12 people got mugged. Ask your partner if she wants to
join the mugged club, or the savvy Davy club.
--- End Quote ---
After much discussion, and convincing of my partner, I can
confirm that we wish to sign up to the savvy davy club. The
following document just arrived on our doormat:
HTML https://i.ibb.co/n7hqznx/pcna.jpg
HTML https://i.ibb.co/f2vXdY4/pcnb.jpg
HTML https://i.ibb.co/897dDLx/pcnc.jpg
So, presumably this representation would aim to be a bit more
persuasive?
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cp8759
post Mon, 8 May 2023 - 21:36
Post #29
Just make the same representation again and let us know when you
get the Notice of Rejection. One of us will then sort out the
tribunal appeal for you.
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efunc
post Tue, 9 May 2023 - 22:51
Post #30
Thank you, we will do that and report back.
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efunc
post Thu, 8 Jun 2023 - 14:19
Post #31
So Hounslow have finally responded:
HTML https://i.ibb.co/LrnPtQg/01097854.jpg
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John U.K.
post Thu, 8 Jun 2023 - 15:10
Post #32
Am I alone in wondering what Mr Squiggle, the Appeals and
Monitoring Officer, is on???
Has he read his department's letter of the 30th.March (post#20)?
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Schofeldt
post Today, 08:06
Post #34
efunc: It is tribunal time and I am happy to represent you if
you so wish. There is also a wording issue with the Enforcement
Notice and, of course, they do not have a VCA certificate which
satisfies the criterions of admissibility of evidence provided
at para. 7 (2) of Schedule 1 of the LLA Act 1996 (as amended).
This kind of intransigent approach from councils is converting
into costs, most recently against Brent and Harrow. 2230136090
achieved costs and is similar in that they used a VCA
certificate which did not apply.
#Post#: 36--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hounslow Council - 34 Being in a Bus Lane
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: June 15, 2023, 3:28 am
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I would suggest we do this by the book: you have made
representations and you have not received either a Notice of
Acceptance or a Notice of Rejection. This being the case, the
next step is to wait for the Charge Certificate and then the
Order for Recovery, you can then make a statutory declaration on
the ground that you made formal representations against the
Enforcement Notice but did not receive a Notice of Rejection.
Once the council receives the revoking order from TEC, in theory
they could refer it to the tribunal but I think it's more likely
that at that stage they'll realise their cock-up and cancel. If
they do refer it to the tribunal, you'd have a good chance of
getting costs.
#Post#: 40--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hounslow Council - 34 Being in a Bus Lane
DIR By: efunc
Date: June 15, 2023, 4:04 am
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Thanks for that cp. I hadn't realised that the letter we
received was not actually a Notice of Rejection. The process
seems a little terrifying since we've never taken things as far
as being issued an Order for Recovery!
Who does one then make a statutory declaration to? Is it the
council again, or whoever they've appointed to recover the
vehicle? Thanks for the info, much appreciated.
#Post#: 43--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hounslow Council - 34 Being in a Bus Lane
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: June 15, 2023, 4:15 am
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PM sent. TEC will deal with it. As cp advised, do not worry.
It would be nice, though, to get this to the Tribunal!
#Post#: 44--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hounslow Council - 34 Being in a Bus Lane
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: June 15, 2023, 4:20 am
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Process here
HTML https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/bus-lane-pcn-enforcement-process
Scroll down to 'Charge Certificate' et seq.
#Post#: 45--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hounslow Council - 34 Being in a Bus Lane
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: June 15, 2023, 4:31 am
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HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/schedule/1/enacted
10 (7)
7)Where a declaration has been served under sub-paragraph (2)
(b) or (c) above, the borough council shall refer the case to
the traffic adjudicator who may give such direction as he
considers appropriate.
As alluded by cp above.
#Post#: 64--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hounslow Council - 34 Being in a Bus Lane
DIR By: efunc
Date: June 15, 2023, 9:33 am
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I see, thank you all. Understood, so this is a penultimate
stage. After the Order for Recovery they would still need to go
back to the court and obtain a Warrant of Execution. Sounds
simple enough, we will hold tight!
#Post#: 76--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hounslow Council - 34 Being in a Bus Lane
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: June 15, 2023, 11:24 am
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Just wait for the Charge Certificate, post it on here and do
nothing. Then they will send you the Order for Recovery. Post
that again on here and we will advise.
Do not worry about court and car being taken.
Having dealt with exactly the same situation v Waltham Forest a
year ago, I would strongly recommend writing to them now to
request a copy of the Notice of Rejection and a complete case
log history of all communications.
Should (when) the Charge Certificate be (is) cancelled and the
OFR revoked, you would need the verification code to apply to
the tribunal for costs if they do not play by the rules. The
other council got themselves into a right fandango over their
alleged Notice of Rejection I can tell you.
This council are fully aware that their camera certificate does
not satisfy the criterion of admissibility provided at para 7(2)
of Schedule 1 of the LLA Act 1996.
#Post#: 81--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hounslow Council - 34 Being in a Bus Lane
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: June 15, 2023, 12:01 pm
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efunc
What is the status of your PCN on Hounslow's website?
Most Council's allow you to see a timeline.
Answered my own question: still at £65 - see
HTML https://hounslow.tarantoportal.com/
You need to keep on eye on this for any changes in amount or
status.
#Post#: 603--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hounslow Council - 34 Being in a Bus Lane
DIR By: efunc
Date: June 28, 2023, 5:21 pm
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Hounslow have just issued a Charge Certificate, that I am
posting below. It seems to me that neither points 1, 2, 3 or 4
are correct, which makes me wonder what it is that I'm missing!
The Penalty is now £195 :o
HTML https://i.ibb.co/CmRd5ry/IMG-20230628-0001.jpg
HTML https://i.ibb.co/yBftRk0/IMG-20230628-0002.jpg
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