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#Post#: 16111--------------------------------------------------
Tower Hamlets 33C - route restricted to buses and cycles, Monier
Road, London E3
DIR By: mishty
Date: February 23, 2024, 5:31 am
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Hi all,
(I've reposted this due to display issues which may have made it
unreadable for some)
I received a PCN for a 33C contravention - using a route
restricted to buses and cycles.
This junction was unfamiliar to me, and somehow I missed the
sign. I think it's because the collection of signs and backdrop
caused confusion.
Do you think I can challenge with the following points, or
should I just accept the 'half price' charge if you don't think
the below is likely to be accepted? I'd be grateful for your
suggestions or alternate wording that might help.
* PCN says the charge "£-130.00"
* The 'bus only' sign is mounted higher than all other signs at
the junction, including the matching one on the other side of
the road (section 2.4.1 of Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 1 seems
to indicate they should match, if I understood correctly?). The
sign is mounted 3.1m from the ground when the others are 2.4m
* On approach the sign is against a heavily background, with the
letters of 'Carlton' written down the chimney, which makes it
hard to process when scanning.
* My eyes caught and processed the 20mph sign and I believe I
would have caught and processed the 'bus only' sign if it were
next to or mounted together with the 20mph sign (the signs are
1.2m apart, in addition to the height variance mentioned above).
* I would have had the knowledge up front if there was an
advanced warning sign ahead of reaching the junction, which
there was not.
I did realise when I saw another sign on the bridge a few metres
after I had entered the restricted area, and turned back, but I
think this counts for nothing!
Here's the PCN:
Page 1:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/yYnPfpx.jpeg
Page 2:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/ofHaT7b.jpeg
Page 3:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/z3girkT.jpeg
Page 4:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/6GXvEfj.jpeg
Page 5:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/aZUeXwt.jpeg
Page 6:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/xwksySF.jpeg
It's a new restriction, previously there was no entry across the
bridge, and here is the traffic management order I found on the
web:
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/10BF6Zn5CbjJEpSvaFUoPkcRlxfHflVr0/view?usp=sharing
Google Maps hasn't been updated yet, but here is a video of me
driving through.
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1043wH5JX44i5Plp-WI6WLjmc79ayR_qv/view?usp=sharing
Thanks!
#Post#: 17242--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tower Hamlets 33C - route restricted to buses and cycles,
Monier Road, London E3
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: March 13, 2024, 6:57 pm
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[member=1279]mishty[/member] the signs look clear as day, but
the PCN amount is still at £65 which implies you've made a
representation and the council has issued a rejection reoffering
the discount.
This being the case, please show us what you sent, and the
notice of rejection in full.
Also what you've found is not a traffic order, it's a notice
telling you the traffic order has been made. However as this
sign doesn't need a traffic order at all, the traffic order
would be of limited assistance in any event.
#Post#: 17254--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tower Hamlets 33C - route restricted to buses and cycles,
Monier Road, London E3
DIR By: mishty
Date: March 14, 2024, 5:10 am
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Many thanks [member=1]cp8759[/member] for your reply.
I did made representations based on my thinking above and am
awaiting a response from the council. I'll post back here once
something comes through
#Post#: 17263--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tower Hamlets 33C - route restricted to buses and cycles,
Monier Road, London E3
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: March 14, 2024, 12:59 pm
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Well they've obviously issued a reply as the discount has been
extended, I'd suggest you contact the council and see if they
can email you a copy.
#Post#: 17281--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tower Hamlets 33C - route restricted to buses and cycles,
Monier Road, London E3
DIR By: mishty
Date: March 15, 2024, 4:50 am
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Thanks, I just gave them a call to confirm the status - they
said it's on 'hold' at the moment - which could explain the date
showing as being extended. They haven't reached a decision or
issued anything else just yet. Will update when I hear and will
check periodically just in case something goes missing in the
post...
#Post#: 17293--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tower Hamlets 33C - route restricted to buses and cycles,
Monier Road, London E3
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: March 15, 2024, 7:32 am
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--- Quote from: mishty link ---
>
> Many thanks [member=1]cp8759[/member] for your reply.
> I did made representations based on my thinking..........
>
--- End Quote ---
Please show them.
#Post#: 17301--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tower Hamlets 33C - route restricted to buses and cycles,
Monier Road, London E3
DIR By: mishty
Date: March 15, 2024, 9:40 am
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Sure, [member=24]Hippocrates[/member]
Dear Sir/Madam,
I wish to challenge the PCN on the below grounds.
A: Error in PCN:
1) The amount of the PCN does not make sense when read in
conjunction with Regulation 5 and 7 of the The Road User
Charging Schemes (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement)
(England) Regulations 2013. The PCN says the charge "£-130.00"
(note the minus figure, which indicates a negative transfer of
funds)
B Inadequacy of signage:
1) The 'bus only' sign is mounted higher than all other signs
at the junction, including the matching one on the other side of
the road (section 2.4.1 of Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 1
requires matching heights for duplicated signs). The sign is
mounted 3.1m from the ground when the others are 2.4m. The
purpose of the elevated height in this particular sign relative
to the rest appears to me to be to allow the enforcement camera
an unobstructed view of this section of road to produce the
three evidence pictures.
C Signs require thoughtful placement to ensure effective
communication with road users:
C1) On approach the sign is against a heavily background, where
the significantly prominent letters of 'CARLTON' are written
down the chimney from the driver's viewpoint, which makes it
hard to process .
C2) Existing prominent 20mph signs are significantly spaced
apart from the new road restriction signs and I would have
caught and processed the 'bus only' sign if it were next to or
if only the junction design was updated to have them mounted
together with the 20mph sign. The signs are 1.2m apart
unnecessarily causing a driver to really scan hard to be able to
process all of the signs here.
C3) Whilst not mandatory, I note there is no advanced warning
sign ahead of reaching the junction, which would have supported
my decision making process in advance and avoid the confusion
caused by the above sign placement and positioning issues.
Therefore, in light of the above, please cancel the PCN.
#Post#: 17319--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tower Hamlets 33C - route restricted to buses and cycles,
Monier Road, London E3
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: March 15, 2024, 2:53 pm
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And the rejection letter if any please.
#Post#: 17321--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tower Hamlets 33C - route restricted to buses and cycles,
Monier Road, London E3
DIR By: mishty
Date: March 15, 2024, 3:51 pm
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Hi [member=24]Hippocrates[/member], the council are still
considering my representations and have placed the PCN on hold
for now - I will post back when I hear their response, whichever
way it goes. Thanks
#Post#: 17998--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tower Hamlets 33C - route restricted to buses and cycles,
Monier Road, London E3
DIR By: mishty
Date: March 21, 2024, 4:08 pm
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Hello,
I received a rejection letter, shown in the images below.
I thought my point about the amount figure displaying
incorrectly on the PCN and about the mismatch in the sign
heights would convince them to cancel, though the wording in TSM
says 'should' and not 'must' I think they decided not to.
Do you think there's any grounds in this or with the rejection
letter which would make it worth going to appeal?
Thanks
Chapter 1 of the Traffic Signs Manual
"
2.4 Duplication of regulatory signs
2.4.1. Terminal signs indicating the start of a restriction,
requirement, prohibition or speed limit
should not necessarily be duplicated on each side of the
carriageway. Provisions that previously
required signs to be paired have been removed from TSRGD.
Designers should actively
consider this flexibility in order to reduce environmental
impact, but care should be taken to
ensure that, where a single sign is used, it is clearly visible
to all relevant road users, and does
not give rise to issues relating to road safety or enforcement.
There remains a duty on traffic
authorities to place such signs as they consider will give
adequate guidance of a regulatory
measure. Where it is necessary to place two signs they should
match in terms of design,
illumination, height and, wherever possible, be aligned with one
another on either side of the
road.
"
"
1.2 Definitions
1.2.1. In the Manual, the word “must” is used to indicate a
legal requirement of the Traffic Signs
Regulations and General Directions (or other legislation) that
must be complied with. The word
“should” indicates a course of action that is recommended and
represents good practice. The
word “may” generally indicates a permissible action, or an
option that requires consideration
depending on the circumstances.
"
HTML https://i.imgur.com/OkFzNSi.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/PFt2HaN.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/A3SneKe.jpeg
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