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#Post#: 737--------------------------------------------------
Edinburgh - 24 Not parked correctly within the markings of the
parking bay - Leamington Terrace
DIR By: davidmcn
Date: July 2, 2023, 4:06 pm
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[reposted from Pepipoo as suggested]
Parked straddling two bays, one being mixed residents permit /
pay and display (as are most in the area) and the other being
resident permit only. Car has a valid residents permit so could
legitimately park within either. Bays are both multi-vehicle and
not delineated into car lengths, so no argument that I've put a
parking space out of use for others (I merely made efficient use
of what was a car-sized gap when I parked!).
I have in the past been successful with an appeal on that basis
(though only as "we'll let you off this time" rather than any
acknowledgement that I had a valid legal point).
Only other potential relevant point is that they have been a bit
haphazard about removing old markings/signs in the area since
the latest TRO changes (so I frequently park in e.g. a
legitimate space which is still partly marked as a loading bay),
so I suspect I assumed the delineation between the bays was no
longer a relevant one and it was all a mixed-use stretch, but it
looks like the markings and signs do in fact correctly
correspond to the current TRO.
Left there for a couple of days so I have two identical tickets
to deal with (is there potential for appeal on that point? The
restrictions apply 0830-1730 Mon-Fri (CPZ hours not repeated on
the pavement signs) so potentially not a "continuous"
infraction.).
I'll appeal anyway, but does the panel have any helpful tips or
precedents?
HTML https://goo.gl/maps/UepydLzSKHhKEYoF6[attach=1][attach=2][attach=3]
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 741--------------------------------------------------
Re: Edinburgh - 24 Not parked correctly within the markings of
the parking bay - Leamington Terrace
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: July 2, 2023, 5:27 pm
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The traffic order is The City of Edinburgh Council (Traffic
Regulation; Restrictions on Waiting, Loading and Unloading,
Stopping and Parking Places) Designation and Traffic Regulation
Order 2018
HTML https://bit.ly/44npImC,
but the map tiles have to be requested
separately so I have now done this.
The argument is untested in Scotland, but a case can be made
that the requirement to park within the bay markings must be
conveyed to motorists, see these cases:
Cooper v London Borough of Richmond Upon Thames (1990292199, 18
July 2000)
HTML http://bit.ly/3ZXRgh0
Ernesto Villa Blandino v London Borough of Barnet (2110474195,
28 November 2011)
HTML http://bit.ly/3WCbvxL
Michal Budai v London Borough of Barnet (2120008348, 06 February
2012)
HTML http://bit.ly/3iZgaMB
Caroline Ratner v London Borough of Barnet (2140338414, 10
September 2014)
HTML http://bit.ly/3JaxaKG
Cheryl Kuczynski v London Borough of Barnet (2160033974, 30
April 2016)
HTML http://bit.ly/3J3WCkW
Sultan Gangji v London Borough of Barnet (2160439695, 15
November 2016)
HTML http://bit.ly/3XyBQy4
Tecwyn Evans v London Borough of Merton (2160499981, 05 January
2017)
HTML http://bit.ly/3wlTfOL
Gerald Halibard v London Borough of Barnet (2170225166, 15 June
2017)
HTML http://bit.ly/3Hmjg5J
Lamin Sesay v London Borough of Southwark (2180188510, 22 June
2018)
HTML http://bit.ly/3kAFUj0
Anthony Westmore v London Borough of Barnet (2180064744, 15
March 2018)
HTML http://bit.ly/3nwzArv
Keren Lewin v London Borough of Haringey (2190290943, 28 August
2019)
HTML http://bit.ly/3XI0n3A
So starting with the basics, do the terms and conditions of your
permit say anything about parking wholly within a marked bay?
#Post#: 794--------------------------------------------------
Re: Edinburgh - 24 Not parked correctly within the markings of
the parking bay - Leamington Terrace
DIR By: davidmcn
Date: July 3, 2023, 5:06 pm
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--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
> So starting with the basics, do the terms and conditions of
your permit say anything about parking wholly within a marked
bay?
>
--- End Quote ---
Hmm. "Park your vehicle fully within a permit holders or shared
use parking place within your zone" (from here
HTML https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/parking-permits/residents%E2%80%99-permit-information-guidance?documentId=12686&categoryId=20277)<br
/>which doesn't help my case much.
#Post#: 803--------------------------------------------------
Re: Edinburgh - 24 Not parked correctly within the markings of
the parking bay - Leamington Terrace
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: July 3, 2023, 5:47 pm
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Generic information on the council website isn't worth diddly
squat, the actual terms and conditions are here:
HTML https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/26050/residents-parking-permit-terms-and-conditions
I can't see any reference in that document to the manner of
parking, and the document says "By applying for a permit, the
applicant agrees to be bound by the following terms and
conditions".
It is implicit that by granting a permit, the council also
agrees to be bound by those terms and conditions, so they can't
come up with additional terms later on if they realise they
forgot to include something.
I've saved a copy of that PDF here
HTML https://bit.ly/44vK64W,
just in case they get any ideas.
Give others a few days to commnet, if nobody adds anything by
the weekend bump the thread and I'll write a draft for you.
#Post#: 1043--------------------------------------------------
Re: Edinburgh - 24 Not parked correctly within the markings of
the parking bay - Leamington Terrace
DIR By: davidmcn
Date: July 8, 2023, 2:54 pm
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--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> Generic information on the council website isn't worth diddly
squat, the actual terms and conditions are here:
HTML https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/26050/residents-parking-permit-terms-and-conditions
>
> I can't see any reference in that document to the manner of
parking, and the document says "By applying for a permit, the
applicant agrees to be bound by the following terms and
conditions".
>
> It is implicit that by granting a permit, the council also
agrees to be bound by those terms and conditions, so they can't
come up with additional terms later on if they realise they
forgot to include something.
>
> I've saved a copy of that PDF here
HTML https://bit.ly/44vK64W,
just in case they get any ideas.
>
> Give others a few days to commnet, if nobody adds anything by
the weekend bump the thread and I'll write a draft for you.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hi, would be greatly appreciated, thanks.
#Post#: 1103--------------------------------------------------
Re: Edinburgh - 24 Not parked correctly within the markings of
the parking bay - Leamington Terrace
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: July 10, 2023, 3:36 pm
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Draft reps:
[indent]
Dear City of Edinburgh Council,
I dispute liability because the alleged contravention did not
occur. The highways authority is required to convey the effects
of the traffic order to the attention of motorists, but nothing
on the traffic signs conveys the requirement to park within the
bay markings, and the permit's terms and conditions published at
www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/26050/residents-parking-permit-terms-and-conditions
do not mention any such requirement.
It follows that the alleged contravention did not occur and the
penalty charge must be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,
[/indent]
Send them online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation
screem.
#Post#: 1123--------------------------------------------------
Re: Edinburgh - 24 Not parked correctly within the markings of
the parking bay - Leamington Terrace
DIR By: davidmcn
Date: July 11, 2023, 5:02 pm
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--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> Draft reps:
>
> [indent]
> Dear City of Edinburgh Council,
>
> I dispute liability because the alleged contravention did not
occur. The highways authority is required to convey the effects
of the traffic order to the attention of motorists, but nothing
on the traffic signs conveys the requirement to park within the
bay markings, and the permit's terms and conditions published at
www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/26050/residents-parking-permit-terms-and-conditions
do not mention any such requirement.
>
> It follows that the alleged contravention did not occur and
the penalty charge must be cancelled.
>
> Yours faithfully,
> [/indent]
>
> Send them online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation
screem.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks, have submitted and will update when I have responses.
#Post#: 2372--------------------------------------------------
Re: Edinburgh - 24 Not parked correctly within the markings of
the parking bay - Leamington Terrace
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: August 1, 2023, 6:53 pm
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Will look at these if a rejection comes back:
The City of Edinburgh Council (Traffic Regulation; Restrictions
on Waiting, Loading and Unloading, Stopping and Parking Places)
Designation and Traffic Regulation Order 2018
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/16vQ7Thvx3nyPxKb6QOWBMw5HMoXU5pFr/view?usp=sharing
Confirmed Map Tiles - Leamington Terrace 18.07.23
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UdOEatv-0iWn1mvwIGynuc3NBokm9JOt/view?usp=sharing
#Post#: 2749--------------------------------------------------
Re: Edinburgh - 24 Not parked correctly within the markings of
the parking bay - Leamington Terrace
DIR By: davidmcn
Date: August 6, 2023, 3:07 pm
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Successful though grudging result:
"The parking tickets were issued because the vehicle was not
parked correctly within the bay. The legislation requires that,
when a vehicle is parked in a parking bay, every part of that
vehicle must be contained within the bay markings. The Parking
Attendant has recorded that the vehicle was not wholly contained
within the parking bay.
The residents parking permit only authorises you to park your
vehicle in any vacant permit, shared use or public parking place
within your zone during permitted hours. Unless the vehicle is
fully within the appropriate bay it has no legal status, and the
residents permit contains no guarantee that the holder will be
able to park in or near the street in which the holder resides.
The responsibility is with the driver to check the bay markings
before leaving the vehicle parked. The very existence of bay
markings makes parking within them self evident.
We will cancel the parking tickets as a courtesy on this
occasion. Any future tickets issued under the same circumstances
will not be cancelled as the regulations have now been confirmed
to you."
#Post#: 2754--------------------------------------------------
Re: Edinburgh - 24 Not parked correctly within the markings of
the parking bay - Leamington Terrace
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: August 6, 2023, 3:32 pm
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Except that the regulations don't exist ! It reads like a
typical Edinburgh answer ! "you'll have had your tea, of
course"
HTML https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/309690/youll-have-had-your-tea
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