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#Post#: 15823--------------------------------------------------
Hull City Council, code 21 Parked in a suspended bay, Market
Place
DIR By: ttn48
Date: February 18, 2024, 11:07 am
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Hi,
I parked in a parking space, and on the pavement next to the
space was a yellow flat-sided cone with a 'no waiting' sign on
it. The cones had 'HCC' written on by hand in marker pen.
The space in front of the one I parked in had a cone in when I
parked. The space I parked in did not.
I saw no notice suspending the bays.
I received the PCN attached to my windscreen.
I submitted an informal challenge, which was rejected.
I can wait for the Notice to Owner and then make a 'formal
representation', apparently. After that I could go to tribunal.
Do I have grounds on which I could successfully challenge the
PCN, or should I pay now to get the discount?
The street pictures below are mine.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/thOccTc.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/cz8sVUO.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/ABaoR84.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/dClFD0J.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/I4uqRUa.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/Sg4ongN.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/vgNZS38.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/MVzm26a.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/RHdIFnI.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/PQUFE1h.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/sdcA0Ts.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/DLYAdhw.jpeg
Streeview location:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/A7Y6x3Xn9neayzRVA
Despite the name, Market Place is a street, not a market place.
Thanks very much in advance for any advice you can offer.
#Post#: 15825--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hull City Council, code 21 Parked in a suspended bay, Market
Place
DIR By: guest17
Date: February 18, 2024, 11:32 am
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Hull does not have DfT authorisation for any suspension sign, so
it is difficult to see how they can enforce a Code 21.
I would go back on the following basis:-
I challenge liability for PCN ????? because the contravention
alleged did not occur. Penalty charges can only be imposed by
signs authorised under section 64(2) of the Road Traffic
Regulation Act 1984, this means either signs authorised by the
Traffic Signs Regulations 2016, or by signs specifically
authorised by the Secretary of State.
The Traffic Signs Regulations 2016 do not authorise any parking
suspension signs, and a search of the Department for Transport
website at
HTML https://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-auths/
indicates that
Hull City Council has not obtained a special authorisation from
the Secretary of State for the use of any parking suspension
signs.
In the absence of a lawful parking suspension sign, the
contravention alleged cannot have occurred. I remind the council
that unauthorised signs are an unlawful obstruction of the
highway.
Mike
#Post#: 15826--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hull City Council, code 21 Parked in a suspended bay, Market
Place
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: February 18, 2024, 12:34 pm
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In addition to the above, the PCN is non-compliant with
regulation 3 in the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic
Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England)
Regulations 2022 : -
--- Quote ---
>
> 3.—(1) A regulation 9 penalty charge notice must include the
following information—
>
> (a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served may, in
accordance with these Regulations, make representations to the
enforcement authority against the penalty charge and, if those
representations are rejected, appeal to an adjudicator;
> (b)that if, before a notice to owner is served,
representations against the penalty charge are received at such
address as may be specified in the notice for the purpose those
representations will be considered by the enforcement authority;
> (c)that if a notice to owner is served despite the
representations mentioned in sub-paragraph (b), representations
against the penalty charge must be made to the enforcement
authority in the form and manner and at the time specified in
the notice to owner.
--- End Quote ---
Can you see anything that looks like 3 (1)(c) ? No, thought not.
#Post#: 15887--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hull City Council, code 21 Parked in a suspended bay, Market
Place
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: February 19, 2024, 7:16 am
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Wait for the NTO from the "Arbiters". ::)
#Post#: 16143--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hull City Council, code 21 Parked in a suspended bay, Market
Place
DIR By: Phantomcrusader
Date: February 23, 2024, 11:10 am
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The RTRA 1984 says this
--- Quote ---
> 49 Supplementary provisions as to designation orders and
designated parking places.
>
> (1)Where under a designation order vehicles may not be left at
all times in the designated parking place—
>
> (a)the parking place shall for the purposes of sections 46 and
47 of this Act be treated, as respects any time during which
vehicles may not be left there in pursuance of the order, as if
it were not designated by the order
--- End Quote ---
Question for regular members.....if no offence under s.47 RTRA
1984
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/47
occurs
during any period that parking is not permitted (due to the loss
of designated parking place status), what offence has occured
under schedule 7 TMA 2004
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/schedule/7<br
/>considering this occurred outside London?
#Post#: 17249--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hull City Council, code 21 Parked in a suspended bay, Market
Place
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: March 14, 2024, 4:23 am
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[member=1258]ttn48[/member] any update? The council website says
they have issued a notice to owner, please post it up so we can
check for errors in the small print.
--- Quote from: Phantomcrusader link ---
>
> Question for regular members.....if no offence under s.47 RTRA
1984
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/47
occurs
during any period that parking is not permitted (due to the loss
of designated parking place status), what offence has occured
under schedule 7 TMA 2004
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/schedule/7<br
/>considering this occurred outside London?
>
--- End Quote ---
Paragraph 4(2)(b) of Schedule 7 would likely cover it.
#Post#: 17256--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hull City Council, code 21 Parked in a suspended bay, Market
Place
DIR By: ttn48
Date: March 14, 2024, 6:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
No, it hasn't reached me yet. I will update when it does.
#Post#: 17295--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hull City Council, code 21 Parked in a suspended bay, Market
Place
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: March 15, 2024, 7:37 am
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Para. 4 of the rejection letter also wrongly states the law:
will not may regarding the service of a Notice to Owner.
#Post#: 17811--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hull City Council, code 21 Parked in a suspended bay, Market
Place
DIR By: ttn48
Date: March 20, 2024, 7:52 am
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Here is the NTO..
HTML https://i.imgur.com/W6r3zJn.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/0Lb3m3m.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/5bf10RD.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/vJrLYuy.jpeg
#Post#: 17824--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hull City Council, code 21 Parked in a suspended bay, Market
Place
DIR By: Phantomcrusader
Date: March 20, 2024, 9:13 am
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--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> Paragraph 4(2)(b) of Schedule 7 would likely cover it.
>
--- End Quote ---
I don't think so because a suspension does not replace a parking
place with a physical or virtual yellow line. If it did, there
would be no need for code 21 as code 1 or 2 would suffice. I
suggest raising the point and let the council or adjudicator
attempt to counter.
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