DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so ...
*****************************************************
#Post#: 16637--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns
Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: March 1, 2024, 2:08 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: zzzatang link ---
>
> With regards to points:
> #1 Location. The PCN only states "HORNS ROAD (A)" and not
"Horns road, redbridge" as you have searched in Google Maps. If
we are going to appeal on a technicality that the location is
vague then this might become an important point to search what
they have provided exactly. IMHO
>
--- End Quote ---
But is says London Borough of Redbridge on the PCN, see
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/eUnJUUfdNp6pZrZB7
On top of this, there only appears to be one Horns Road in the
UK, the only other suggested results is Horns Lane in Norwich
but that's because Google accounts for the fact that you might
have got Road and Lane mixed up.
--- Quote from: zzzatang link ---
>
> #2 Restricted View: Turning left vs going straight into YBJ
(as the camera is facing) are two different angles and do not
provide the same amount of information. The long traffic pile up
on the road after the signal is not visible as a person
approaches the junction intending to turn left. I could see the
green signal and no cars on the left, while a white car
approached the junction on the right.
>
--- End Quote ---
If you want to pursue this you need to find a better image,
because the one you've provided does not support this argument
at all.
--- Quote from: zzzatang link ---
>
> #3, 4, 5: I appreciate you think they are nonsense. However,
most people enter a junction based on their judgement of space
on the other side...
>
--- End Quote ---
And the way adjudicators have interpreted this law for decades
is that if the driver makes an error of judgment and can't clear
the junction, then they commit a contravention. Of course you
don't have to accept my advice, you can run the argument at the
tribunal but your chances of success are low indeed IMO.
--- Quote from: zzzatang link ---
>
> #6 [attach=1]
> The image attached with this message has markings to better
illustrate the overhanging part of the YBJ which is not
meaningfully required or ever used for any car going straight on
the opposite road or taking a right. Hence the argument that the
YBJ is bigger than what is needed.
>
--- End Quote ---
I fear you've missed the point: even if the junction markings
are bigger than needed, that is not a defence in law. So even if
the adjudicator agrees, it won't make any difference.
--- Quote from: zzzatang link ---
>
> #7 has been added based on advice given on this thread by
[member=24]Hippocrates[/member]
>
--- End Quote ---
Sure, and if it's arguable it's worth running, we just want to
ensure you are aware of the risks.
--- Quote from: zzzatang link ---
>
> #8 has been added from a previous thread here:
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/kingston-borough-council-31j-stopping-in-a-box-junction-(richmond-road-junction-/
> This ground for appeal has been cited multiple times on this
forum for me to believe it is a genuine point. So, given my
limited knowledge of law, I do not think I am misleading anyone
on this.
>
--- End Quote ---
I am telling you it is wrong in law, the law in question is
here:
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/schedule/1/paragraph/5/enacted
[indent]
Charge certificates
5(1)Where a penalty charge notice is served on any person and
the penalty charge to which it relates is not paid before the
end of the relevant period, the enforcing authority may serve on
that person a statement (in this paragraph referred to as a
“charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in
question is increased by 50 per cent.
(2)The relevant period, in relation to a penalty charge notice
is the period of 28 days beginning—
[indent]
(a)where no representations are made under paragraph 1 above,
with the date on which the penalty charge notice is served;
[/indent]
[/indent]
As Hippocrates says, this ground won't get you anywhere anyway.
--- Quote from: zzzatang link ---
>
> In the same thread (cite above), if you look at the 5th
message from you... the following is mentioned:
"[member=992]wolvoman[/member] I will PM you a link to put in
the representation, it will redirect to here but if you give
them the link I'll PM you, we can use the click count to confirm
whether they've looked at it or not (obviously do not click on
that link yourself as we want the click count to remain at
zero). If they don't click on it, we can then prove they've
failed to consider all of the evidence. If they say in the
rejection that they've considered all the evidence, we've got
them for lying as well."
>
> I was referring to this link counter for the evidence for #8
>
> However, now it seems you no longer believe in #8 as a ground
for an appeal, based on your response above.
>
--- End Quote ---
No, I've read the thread and the link was for ground 7, I have
set this up and will PM it to you in a minute.
#Post#: 17392--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns
Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
DIR By: zzzatang
Date: March 16, 2024, 8:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hippocrates link ---
>
> Re 7: may be so; but, you can include it as they must
consider it. Do you need my text re this?*
>
> BTW, you received it on Monday 19th! The deemed date of
service.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
[member=24]Hippocrates[/member], [member=1]cp8759[/member] and
others on the forum,
I need your help / advice about my next step / available options
(if any). Given the Deemed date of Service is 19-Feb-2024, I
believe I am within (or I was on Saturday 16-Mar-2024 at 11:39
pm) within the 28 days period from 19-Feb-2028 to make a
representation online (or alternately pay the 130 GBP penalty
charge should I choose to do so)
However, the council website does not allow me to appeal online
or make online representations even though the PCN states this
would be the option available to me. Also, please note that the
council website on 16-Mar-2024 asks for the higher 195 GBP
payment instead of 130 GBP even though 28 days from date of
service have not passed yet. [attach=1]
Clearly given that the ((9 out of 10) post offices near me are
closed on Sunday 17-Mar-2024 (with the exception of one as per
Post office branch finder - which could be wrong data or provide
limited service), Please advise whether I can post the appeal on
Monday 18-Mar-2024 (when all Post Offices will be open) or it
would be too late to meet the deadline?
What are my options, and am I calculating the dates and deadline
incorrectly?
I used the council's complaints form on 17-Mar-2024 (about 12:34
am) that is available on their website to complaint about this
lack of the appeals option available online to me and I have
attached my PCN appeal letter along with relevant screenshots
asking the complaints team to consider the appeal within the
timeframe provided in the PCN. Though I am not sure if this
would be accepted as a correct means of Appeal of my PCN. The
complaint could only be filed 50 min later (which means the date
has changed) as I needed time to update my appeal letter with
the new set of issues faced and also to author the complaint on
their website.
Is this lack of online appeals options and demand for higher
payment before the 28 days from date of service a ground for
appeal ?
PCN dated 15-Feb-2024 for quick reference:
HTML https://app.box.com/s/gsce4yiynutxjls1pyclheokycp3hvrb
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 17393--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns
Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: March 16, 2024, 8:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=1257]zzzatang[/member] various issues.
Firstly you've left everything to the last second, so this is
entirely a self-inflicted dilemma.
Secondly you need a new screenshot where you use
HTML https://time.is
to prove the time of the screenshot, as the time on your own
computer can easily be manipulated.
Third,the deadline for representations is midnight on Sunday 17
March i.e. today, so in theory you're not out of time.
This leaves you with the very practical problem that there are
no postal deliveries today, so even if you had sent the
representations by first class post yesterday, they would still
be received out of time.
At this point all you can do is send an email to
parkingandtrafficenforcement@redbridge.gov.uk as follows:
[indent]
Dear London Borough of Redbridge,
I have attempted to make representations against PCN AF98203157
which was deemed served on 19 February 2024, and by my
calculation the last day of the 28 day period is 17 March 2024
i.e. today. However the council website at
HTML https://my.redbridge.gov.uk/ParkingPCN/Review
wrongly tells me
that the only option is to pay the outstanding balance of £195.
I therefore challenge the PCN for two reasons: firstly the
penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of
the case, as the penalty cannot be increased to £195 before 18
March 2024. Secondly where the penalty charge notice provides
for representations to be submitted on the council website, it
is a procedural impropriety to prevent a motorist from
submitting representations online before the end of the
statutory 28 day period.
Yours faithfully
[/indent]
You'll need to add your full name and address, the autoreply you
will receive says
[indent]
Please note you cannot contest the issue of a Penalty Charge
Notice by email, you may challenge the issue of a Penalty Charge
Notice within 28 days of the PCN/Notice to Owner being served.
To do this please go online to www.redbridge.gov.uk/parkingpcn,
you will require the PCN number and vehicle registration.
[/indent]
Obviously you can't submit representations via the website, but
there is no requirement for the council to accept
representations at all and there is a risk they could play
hardball and say representations by email are not made in the
form and manner stated on the PCN. All you can do is hope that
they are kind enough to issue a notice of rejection but frankly
it's 50 / 50 at this point.
You should also post a copy by Royal Mail special delivery on
Monday.
You definitely don't want to include any other arguments because
you want it to be as easy as possible for them to issue a
rejection.
#Post#: 17395--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns
Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
DIR By: zzzatang
Date: March 16, 2024, 9:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> [member=1257]zzzatang[/member] various issues.
>
>
> Secondly you need a new screenshot where you use
HTML https://time.is
to prove the time of the screenshot, as the time
on your own computer can easily be manipulated.
>
> Third,the deadline for representations is midnight on Sunday
17 March i.e. today, so in theory you're not out of time.
>
> This leaves you with the very practical problem that there are
no postal deliveries today, so even if you had sent the
representations by first class post yesterday, they would still
be received out of time.
>
> At this point all you can do is send an email to
parkingandtrafficenforcement@redbridge.gov.uk as follows:
>
> [indent]
> Dear London Borough of Redbridge,
>
> I have attempted to make representations against PCN
AF98203157 which was deemed served on 19 February 2024, and by
my calculation the last day of the 28 day period is 17 March
2024 i.e. today. However the council website at
HTML https://my.redbridge.gov.uk/ParkingPCN/Review
wrongly tells me
that the only option is to pay the outstanding balance of £195.
>
> I therefore challenge the PCN for two reasons: firstly the
penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of
the case, as the penalty cannot be increased to £195 before 18
March 2024. Secondly where the penalty charge notice provides
for representations to be submitted on the council website, it
is a procedural impropriety to prevent a motorist from
submitting representations online before the end of the
statutory 28 day period.
>
> Yours faithfully
> [/indent]
>
> You'll need to add your full name and address, the autoreply
you will receive says
>
> [indent]
> Please note you cannot contest the issue of a Penalty Charge
Notice by email, you may challenge the issue of a Penalty Charge
Notice within 28 days of the PCN/Notice to Owner being served.
To do this please go online to www.redbridge.gov.uk/parkingpcn,
you will require the PCN number and vehicle registration.
> [/indent]
>
> Obviously you can't submit representations via the website,
but there is no requirement for the council to accept
representations at all and there is a risk they could play
hardball and say representations by email are not made in the
form and manner stated on the PCN. All you can do is hope that
they are kind enough to issue a notice of rejection but frankly
it's 50 / 50 at this point.
>
> You should also post a copy by Royal Mail special delivery on
Monday.
>
> You definitely don't want to include any other arguments
because you want it to be as easy as possible for them to issue
a rejection.
>
--- End Quote ---
[member=1]cp8759[/member] , Firstly thanks for a quick and
thorough response. It is much appreciated.
With regards to timestamps using
HTML https://time.is/
, please let
me know if the following two screenshots are acceptable to be
attached to the email that you have kindly suggested I send.
[attach=1] [attach=2]
Also, should I attach the original screenshot taken on Saturday
as well? lastly, is there any other council website screenshot
you suggest that I should attach to the email?
Should I include printouts of these two screenshots in the
letter I post via special delivery on Monday or I can just add
box.com url's to the printed letter for the screenshots just
like I have done for other screenshots in the original post
above or should I do both ? [apologies, I just want to know
what is the minimum I should be doing]
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 17412--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns
Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: March 17, 2024, 5:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I have just checked and it states this:
The outstanding balance is £195.00
You can view details to pay for your PCN.
The period when you could contest this PCN has expired.
Penalty Charge Notice: **********
Vehicle registration: ******
Contravention date: Saturday, 10 Feb 2024 15:01
Contravention: Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited
Street: HORNS ROAD (A)
Location:
Status: Charge Certificate Posted.
*******************
I would send the e mail today asap. and follow cp's advice. I
have a case tomorrow in which they issued a premature Charge
Certificate. Please stay calm! They appear to be rather
trigger-happy. When you receive the C.C., post it up. The date
will be fascinating. In tomorrow's case they issued the C.C.
three days before they were allowed to do so, and two days after
the appeal was registered. So, in my view, this also requires a
firm complaint to the council tom challenge their parking
department's competence.
#Post#: 17413--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns
Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: March 17, 2024, 5:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=1257]zzzatang[/member] well sorry I don't wish to labour
the point, but you've already failed to do the minimum. The
minimum would have been a 1 line representation made in time
saying "the contravention did not occur", but we are where we
are.
Yes there's no harm in attaching all three screenshots and I'd
put print-outs in the letter going by post as well.
#Post#: 17415--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns
Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: March 17, 2024, 5:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Send the e mail presto. In my view, the premature issue of the
charge certificate by the council has necessitated your only
option which is to use their e mail address as one route. I
would also require them to cancel the C.C.
#Post#: 17478--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns
Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
DIR By: zzzatang
Date: March 17, 2024, 12:50 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I have sent the email today to
parkingandtrafficenforcement@redbridge.gov.uk and I also managed
to send a special delivery (due to be delivered on Tue 1pm) post
earlier today by finding a post office branch open on a Sunday.
Thanks for your help
#Post#: 17490--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns
Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: March 17, 2024, 2:58 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
In my view, the former should suffice. Please show exactly the
play you wrote.
#Post#: 17571--------------------------------------------------
Re: Redbridge PCN, Code 31j Stopping in a box junction, Horns
Road (A) / TFL, yellow box, near B&M
DIR By: zzzatang
Date: March 18, 2024, 9:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I sent the following email yesterday (90% of text was as
proposed by cp8759 on this thread):
[Indent]
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2024 5:00 PM
To: Parking and Traffic Enforcement
<parkingandtrafficenforcement@redbridge.gov.uk>
Subject: Representations against PCN AF98203157 not allowed
online before 28 days period
Dear London Borough of Redbridge,
I have attempted to make representations against PCN AF98203157
which was deemed served on 19 February 2024, and by my
calculation the last day of the 28 day period is 17 March 2024
i.e. today. However the council website at
HTML https://my.redbridge.gov.uk/ParkingPCN/Review
wrongly tells me
that the only option is to pay the outstanding balance of £195
and that the period when I could contest this PCN has expired.
(Timestamped Screenshots attached)
I therefore challenge the PCN for two reasons: firstly the
penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of
the case, as the penalty cannot be increased to £195 before 18
March 2024. Secondly where the penalty charge notice provides
for representations to be submitted on the council website, it
is a procedural impropriety to prevent a motorist from
submitting representations online before the end of the
statutory 28 day period.
Yours faithfully,
Full name
Full address
[/Indent]
( Three screehshots were attached to the email: two with Time.is
timestamp of Sun 17-Mar-2024 that I shared earlier and one with
timestamp of Sat 16-Mar-2024 )
I have received the following response from the council this
morning asking for further info:
[Indent]
From: Parking and Traffic Enforcement
<parkingandtrafficenforcement@redbridge.gov.uk>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2024 at 08:47
Subject: RE: Representations against PCN AF98203157 not allowed
online before 28 days period
To: me
Good Morning,
Thank you for your email.
Please could you advise if the Penalty Charge Notice was
received?
Regards,
Shals
Business Administrator
Parking Management
London Borough of Redbridge
[/Indent]
I am not sure why they are asking for me to confirm whether the
PCN was received. Is there something more than what meets the
eye ?
[member=24]Hippocrates[/member] , apologies I missed your
message about requesting the CC be cancelled in the original
email. Should I add this request in the response to there email
today?
*****************************************************
Page 2 of 7
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page