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#Post#: 15186--------------------------------------------------
PCN - Moved location, and footage - Informal challenge refused -
Valve Position (North Essex Parking Partnership)
DIR By: volavola
Date: February 7, 2024, 11:27 am
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Hello,
Hoping for some advice on all this.
My partner parked in Colchester recently, at St Johns Green.
Whereby there is a number of bays for free parking, just no
return within 2 hours. When she returned the second time there
was a ticket (attached)
Before the 2 hour period was up my partner returned to the car
and moved it from Point A to Point B, as shown in the image.
Also the YouTube video here of dashcam footage here:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPznPeRzN9Y
I put all this information on the appeal. Along with noting that
the two locations whilst both St Johns Green, are listed
seperately in the TRO (attached image of that too).
It just seems a bit mad that it's been denied on the valves
apparently being in the same location on the wheel. When the car
was moved 1 minute up the road to another location.
I guess just wait now for 28 days and the a formal appeal? Seems
to a whole lot of waste time and energy all round.
Edit: Attached rejection of informal appeal.
Thanks
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 15210--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Moved location, and footage - Informal challenge
refused - Valve Position (North Essex Parking Partnership)
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: February 7, 2024, 6:11 pm
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Looks like some mendacity on the part of the CEO re tyre valve
positions ! However it does look as if they treat all the
separate bays that come under St John's Green as one area for
parking, with identical restrictions, so moving from one bay to
another does not trump the 2 hour limit.
Clearly your informal challenge has been rejected, so the next
stage is the Notice to Owner, where you can submit a formal
representations.
All you can do at the NtO stage is state the facts; that you
moved the car before the 2 hours was up, and re-parked elsewhere
in St Johns Green in a totally separate bay. You might not get
away with this because the TRO lists the relevant bays under one
single location, so the contravention is, in theory, made out. I
think your wifes "clever wheeze" to thwart the 2 hour rule may
not be valid. Certainly the council are unlikely to give way, so
you'd have to take them to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. The
discount option is lost at the Notice to Owner stage, by the
way.
The other aspect is the PCN itself and its content. We often
find fatal errors in PCN that on their own, win appeals even if
the contravention is made out. This is because a learned judge,
some years ago stated that, (for parking PCN penalties), that a
penalty can be demanded if a set of statutory conditions exists.
An error on a PCN can be such that it is a procedural
impropriety and thus the PCN is void.
So please post-up all of the PCN, top to bottom and all sides.
#Post#: 15220--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Moved location, and footage - Informal challenge
refused - Valve Position (North Essex Parking Partnership)
DIR By: volavola
Date: February 8, 2024, 5:03 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your reply.
Yes it does seem that it would be almost impossible for the tyre
vales to have been in the same position, given the length the
car was moved as shown in the video.
I had assumed (maybe wrongly) that the as the locations are
listed seperately in the TRO, that these would be counted as
different locations.
i.e. parked initially in St John's Green and then subsequently
moved to St John's Green (central Section) - Page 205 of the TRO
here:
HTML https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/TRO/Colchester/CH071.pdf
I have also uploaded the PCN below (both sides)
Thanks
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 15362--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Moved location, and footage - Informal challenge
refused - Valve Position (North Essex Parking Partnership)
DIR By: volavola
Date: February 10, 2024, 8:18 am
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Is anyone with a bit of experience able to advise if the two
locations are different, if in the TRO they are listed under the
seperate headings?
#Post#: 15372--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Moved location, and footage - Informal challenge
refused - Valve Position (North Essex Parking Partnership)
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: February 10, 2024, 10:06 am
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TRO lists the relevant bays under one single location, so the
contravention is, in theory, made out.
It's not IMO. The contravention of returning within the 2-hour
period might be made out, but the TRO lists 3 distinct areas
under the St. John's Green heading:
St. John's Green;
SJG (Central);
SJG (north-eastern).
The bays themselves are separated by areas of waiting and other
restrictions.
IMO, it is NOT the case that a vehicle which moves bay* is
subject to anything other than that bay's primary restriction.
I've read cases where the 'no return' aspect has been considered
as a 'zonal' restriction but only where the same restrictions
apply throughout. In any event, this is not the alleged
contravention.
*- this is the most worrying part of their reply for me. It
suggests that the authority do NOT accept that the car moved
because it is totally irrelevant whether the valves were in the
same place or not if their argument is that all bays are
covered.
I would focus on this point at formal reps.
From ** to *** my car was parked o/s *** in a 2-hr bay situated
between nos. *** and *** on the *** side of St. John's
Green(this is listed as being the *** area in the TRO). At
approx.*** the car left this bay and was re-positioned o/s no.
*** in the bay which runs between nos. *** and *** SJG(listed
under *** area in the TRO).
The car was not parked for more than the prescribed period in
either of these distinct bays and therefore the contravention
did not occur and the PCN must be cancelled.
I would draw the authority's attention to the following
statement in their letter dated **** rejecting my initial
representations:
************
Before considering these reps, the authority must satisfy
themselves as to whether the car did or did not move between the
CEO's two observations at ** and ***. If they agree, then the
issue of valve positions is at best redundant and at worst
indicative of unsound reasoning. If they disagree and believe
that the car remained stationary, then they should issue a
Notice of Rejection and I would be content to let the
adjudicator decide the matter.
Just some thoughts for later.
#Post#: 15377--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Moved location, and footage - Informal challenge
refused - Valve Position (North Essex Parking Partnership)
DIR By: volavola
Date: February 10, 2024, 12:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you very much for taking the time to reply.
I understand what you are saying in terms of a reply at the
formal stage, and this was the information I put in the informal
appeal.
Proving the car moved is quite easy with the video footage,
however if they then do agree that it has moved is it not that
we've then admitted to overstaying as St John's Green and the
PCN would still need to be paid - if it counts as one single
area anyway?
Do we have any kind of chance of winning this, or is it just a
better bet to pay at the discounted rate?
#Post#: 15385--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Moved location, and footage - Informal challenge
refused - Valve Position (North Essex Parking Partnership)
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: February 10, 2024, 3:16 pm
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if it counts as one single area anyway?
And where did you get this idea?
#Post#: 15395--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Moved location, and footage - Informal challenge
refused - Valve Position (North Essex Parking Partnership)
DIR By: mrmustard
Date: February 11, 2024, 3:17 am
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Please post an image of the bay sign, it must give clear
information
#Post#: 15436--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Moved location, and footage - Informal challenge
refused - Valve Position (North Essex Parking Partnership)
DIR By: volavola
Date: February 11, 2024, 8:49 am
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--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
>
> if it counts as one single area anyway?
>
> And where did you get this idea?
>
--- End Quote ---
Apologies, I misread your reply. I thought the first line was
you saying that the contravention was made out.
Also previous the reply from Incandescent who said they treat
all bays at St Johns Green as one area. So has led to a bit of
confusion on my part as to which is correct.
#Post#: 15437--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN - Moved location, and footage - Informal challenge
refused - Valve Position (North Essex Parking Partnership)
DIR By: volavola
Date: February 11, 2024, 8:51 am
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--- Quote from: mrmustard link ---
>
> Please post an image of the bay sign, it must give clear
information
>
--- End Quote ---
Hi, thanks for your reply. Here's the picture of the sign from
the bay where the ticket was issued, it's identical on the one
at the first set of bays also.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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