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#Post#: 13569--------------------------------------------------
Smart Parking PCN - VRM not registered - TruGym Southend
DIR By: Wellsy
Date: January 10, 2024, 3:50 pm
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Gym car park is owned / monitored by Smart Parking. They have
two tablets on the front desk where you need to input your
registration when you visit to get 3 hours parking. I received a
PCN on 28/11 for a convention dated 07/11.
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Original PCN:
HTML https://imgur.com/a/xtwyGyj
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When I received this I contested it via their website. I did not
give them any of my personal details, I just filled out the text
box to words of this effect (I do not have a copy of the exact
message I'm afraid)
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I have visited this gym countless times and enter my
registration every single visit, this incident was no different.
Your tablets must have had an issue and not registered my entry.
I will not be paying this.
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I submitted that on the day I received the original PCN.
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Today, 10/01, I have received further communications. Please see
here:
HTML https://imgur.com/a/132mtul
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I genuinely believe I entered my registration on the tablet,
I've visited over 50 times and never forgotten. Of course, I
cannot prove this - but how can they? In my opinion, just
because other registrations were recorded that doesn't prove
they were working at the time I visited. For instance, the
internet could've dropped for a few minutes.
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Feedback appreciated. I understand I probably shouldn't have
contested it before consulting a forum such as this. A lesson
learned.
#Post#: 13570--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smart Parking PCN - VRM not registered - TruGym Southend
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: January 10, 2024, 4:12 pm
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--- Quote from: Wellsy link ---
>
> I understand I probably shouldn't have contested it before
consulting a forum such as this. A lesson learned.
>
--- End Quote ---
What's done is done, but yes, if you receive any future charges
come here before sending anything. Especially with Smart Parking
- they're very easy to beat with the right approach.
Your first step, if you haven't already, should be to speak to
the management of the gym, particularly as a regular customer,
to see if they will intervene, given they have seemingly hired
Smart Parking to act on their behalf. They hopefully don't want
to lose loyal business thanks to their dodgy parking operator...
Smart's rejection says "We note your comments in your appeal
regarding the tablet on site not being in service", did you
suggest in your appeal it was broken?
--- Quote ---
> In my opinion, just because other registrations were recorded
that doesn't prove they were working at the time I visited.
--- End Quote ---
Indeed, although if there were registrations correctly recorded
before and after it might make it seem less plausible that it
somehow didn't record yours (another tip for the future might be
to take a photo of your reg entered on the screen, and another
confirming it's been submitted).
You've now got a POPLA Code, so if the gym won't help you can
start preparing your appeal. Aside from any case-specific points
such as your assertion you did in fact enter your reg, the
'standard' appeal points to explore are:
- Signage - was it there to be seen, suitably prominent, and
capable of creating a contract? To advise on this we'll need to
see pictures. This may not be the strongest argument, because as
a regular customer you're clearly aware of the arrangements, but
no harm in us looking.
- Landowner Authority - This involves putting them to proof that
they have a valid contract with the owner of the land, in order
to enforce parking restrictions at the site. This is a good one
to include, as historically Smart Parking have had issues with
this. There's an example of how you can word this appeal point
here:
HTML https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/71287628#Comment_71287628
HTML https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/71287628#Comment_71287628.<br
/>Smart Parking used to withdraw when this was raised at POPLA -
I
haven't seen any Smart Parking cases that have gone to POPLA for
a while, but have a search on the MSE Forum and you might find
some
#Post#: 13581--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smart Parking PCN - VRM not registered - TruGym Southen
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: January 11, 2024, 5:27 am
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Stepping out of line...again..
The template is really longwinded and IMO misses the key issue
(which should be in the title) which is whether the creditor has
any standing in law to bring a claim in their own name against a
user of the site in question.
The assessor will want to satisfy themselves on this point
before considering any other case-related issues because without
being convinced on these matters they could not uphold a party's
claim i.e. to state that they believe that the creditor has a
legitimate claim.
Therefore, the creditor must:
Show their lawful authority to offer contracts on this site;
Demonstrate that they may issue claims in their own right and
not merely as the agent of the landowner;
Establish that the value of these claims has the landowner's
approval.
+any other general issues of contract law which apply, not the
minute detail in the template.
IMO, basic general principles and nowt to do with PoFA/CoPs etc.
etc.
There's a school of thought which holds that the vast detail in
the template should be submitted as part of a keeper's appeal
because this would demonstrate their 'knowledge' and potentially
discourage the creditor from pursuing their case with the IAS.
However, IMO an equally valid argument is that instead of firing
such a broadside which includes some issues which won't
necessarily bear upon their case, a keeper should submit the
higher level points and then wait until the creditor submits
their evidence and then examine this against the framework in
the template and make their rapier thrusts in the context of the
creditor's submission.
But OP, if it's easier to cut and paste from the template and
this suits you, go ahead.
As regards substantive issues, IMO you must lose at IAS as
regards your compliance if the creditor has records of other
VRMs at this time. Why should an assessor disregard such
evidence simply because you say you entered your VRM? On which
point, have you walked us through the process of registration
e.g. press screen to start, enter your VRM noting distinction
between 'O' and '0' and 'I' and '1', please confirm the details
on this display and press enter to continue or back to amend,
your details have been registered....or what?
#Post#: 13583--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smart Parking PCN - VRM not registered - TruGym Southen
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: January 11, 2024, 5:43 am
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--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> The template is really longwinded and IMO misses the key issue
(which should be in the title) which is whether the creditor has
any standing in law to bring a claim in their own name against a
user of the site in question.
>
--- End Quote ---
For what it's worth, on this part you're not "stepping out of
line", at least not with my view. I agree that the template is
rather longer than it needs to be, and could probably be
improved (at some point if I get the time I might draft
something up) - I suggested it here on the basis that in the
past, when it has been included in POPLA appeals, it has led to
Smart Parking pulling out, which is presumably what the OP
wants.
OP, you needn't use the template I suggested if you're
comfortable writing your own version, the key is challenging
that they have the right to enforce parking on the site, by
issuing parking charges and if necessary bringing claims in
their own name, by virtue of a contract with the landowner
entitling them to do so.
#Post#: 13602--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smart Parking PCN - VRM not registered - TruGym Southend
DIR By: guest46
Date: January 11, 2024, 10:39 am
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Has the OP gone back to the gym and stomped their feet yet?
#Post#: 13603--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smart Parking PCN - VRM not registered - TruGym Southend
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: January 11, 2024, 10:45 am
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--- Quote from: M60NJP link ---
>
> Has the OP gone back to the gym and stomped their feet yet?
>
--- End Quote ---
This is a wise first step, whilst being mindful not to miss any
POPLA deadlines (although I'd always suggest a polite 'stomp',
the manager is likely to be more amenable than if he storms in
shouting the odds).
#Post#: 13745--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smart Parking PCN - VRM not registered - TruGym Southend
DIR By: Wellsy
Date: January 14, 2024, 10:53 am
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Hi all, thanks for the replies.
Unfortunately, I'm no longer a member of the gym - should have
added that point. I have emailed them and will attempt to call
them tomorrow and at least try though.
I guess if they won't help it's time for a POPLA?
#Post#: 13747--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smart Parking PCN - VRM not registered - TruGym Southend
DIR By: Wellsy
Date: January 14, 2024, 11:12 am
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I've been doing some reading on successful POPLA appeals and
have found this example:
In this case, I cannot see that the driver of the vehicle has
been identified at any point in the appeals process. As such,
the operator is seeking to pursue the appellant as the
registered keeper of the vehicle. In PoFA it states under
section 9 4(b) that the notice must be given by sending it by
post, to a current address for service for the keeper, so that
it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.
Under section 9 (5) it states the relevant period for the
purpose of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning
with the day after that on which the specified period of parking
ended. The date on the PCN is 12 January 2022. This is 24 days
after the parking event, and so the Notice to Keeper was not
given within the required timeframe. Accordingly, I allow this
appeal.
My fine was dated 7th Nov, but the letter was issued 28th Nov.
Can I use the above?
#Post#: 13749--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smart Parking PCN - VRM not registered - TruGym Southend
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: January 14, 2024, 12:02 pm
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--- Quote from: Wellsy link ---
>
> Can I use the above?
--- End Quote ---
Only if the below sentence is true...
--- Quote from: Wellsy link ---
>
> In this case, I cannot see that the driver of the vehicle has
been identified at any point in the appeals process.
>
--- End Quote ---
It seems from your appeal as posted in your opening post that
you did identify the driver?
#Post#: 13752--------------------------------------------------
Re: Smart Parking PCN - VRM not registered - TruGym Southend
DIR By: Nosy Parker
Date: January 14, 2024, 1:17 pm
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It’s easy to get Smart Parking tickets cancelled by Smart itself
or by POPLA provided the driver hasn’t been identified because
Smart Parking issues tickets that don’t utilise the statutory
procedure for keeper liability.
But you told us that you essentially identified yourself as the
driver in your appeal to Smart Parking by describing what you
(personally) did in order to register at reception.
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