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#Post#: 128046--------------------------------------------------
Re: 9x 50J Cumulative PCNs - Northgate, Northwood - Hillingdon
Council
DIR By: Bulop
Date: August 17, 2026, 11:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Findingaway link ---
>
> [quote author=Bulop link=topic=11750.msg128042#msg128042
date=1786981220]
> Send the back side of one of them please.
>
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://imgpile.com/m/0Tm23X4
All of them have the same front and back.
[/quote]
Miraculously, they have listed all the grounds correctly, so the
procedural impropriety argument won’t work. The thing is, if you
end up taking this to the Tribunal and set aside the discount
the adjudicator (if you win), will accept some appeals and deny
some, forcing you to pay the full amount for those. If you pay
the discounted amounts for all of these PCNs it will amount to
almost the same as going to tribunal, with less risk. Using
solely the argument of fairness and proportionality will most
likely result in this, so you’ll have to take a legal approach
as to the legality of the restriction, research the valid
traffic management order for it.
#Post#: 128049--------------------------------------------------
Re: 9x 50J Cumulative PCNs - Northgate, Northwood - Hillingdon
Council
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: August 17, 2026, 11:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hillingdon website grounds page? What does it show?
#Post#: 128054--------------------------------------------------
Re: 9x 50J Cumulative PCNs - Northgate, Northwood - Hillingdon
Council
DIR By: tincombe
Date: August 17, 2026, 11:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
As regards signage, if you look at GSV, the NRT has been in
place for nearly 20 years. Which begs the question: why was it
only recently that you started to use the road? What could you
put to an adjudicator on this point?
You also seem to have side-stepped this comment in the NOR:
'..there are several signs as you approach Northgate, informing
motorists of the restriction ahead'
And indeed there is a large one at the j/w Manor House Drive.
Apparently you made reference to using satnav which IMO would
likely lead an adjudicator to think: not paying attention to
road signs. But given that the restriction has been there for
some time and the age of your car, surely satnav did not direct
you to take this turn?
Also, which road prohibits the right turn? It certainly isn't
Northgate, so why give this as the location? Is giving the
location of the camera sufficient? Others will have views.
Would you please catalogue the dates of contravention and
corresponding dates of issue of the PCNs and NORs and whether
the discount has been re-offered. Let's see what options you
have.
#Post#: 128058--------------------------------------------------
Re: 9x 50J Cumulative PCNs - Northgate, Northwood - Hillingdon
Council
DIR By: Findingaway
Date: August 17, 2026, 11:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: tincombe link ---
>
> As regards signage, if you look at GSV, the NRT has been in
place for nearly 20 years. Which begs the question: why was it
only recently that you started to use the road? What could you
put to an adjudicator on this point?
>
> You also seem to have side-stepped this comment in the NOR:
'..there are several signs as you approach Northgate, informing
motorists of the restriction ahead'
>
> And indeed there is a large one at the j/w Manor House Drive.
>
> Apparently you made reference to using satnav which IMO would
likely lead an adjudicator to think: not paying attention to
road signs. But given that the restriction has been there for
some time and the age of your car, surely satnav did not direct
you to take this turn?
>
>
> Also, which road prohibits the right turn? It certainly isn't
Northgate, so why give this as the location? Is giving the
location of the camera sufficient? Others will have views.
>
> Would you please catalogue the dates of contravention and
corresponding dates of issue of the PCNs and NORs and whether
the discount has been re-offered. Let's see what options you
have.
>
--- End Quote ---
I am not from the area. I go to the Pinner area to help my
daughter. The normal route I take was closed due to roadworks,
so I looked at Google Maps, saw which way it was taking me and
closed the app.
When it states several, they mean two signs - no more. The first
actual no turn to the right was blocked by foliage - this is the
sign at the Manor. The next sign is right at the start of the
road when you have already committed to the turn and cannot stop
now, and it is a blue sign.
Here is a table showing offence dates and dates of notice - the
letters came into the post 2 to 3 days after the notice dates.
HTML https://imgpile.com/m/dDVxplD
This is Duck's Hill Road into Northgate.
My problem lies with the fact that if I had known about it
earlier, I would have stopped taking that route. It is a real
hit for me in terms of finances...
#Post#: 128059--------------------------------------------------
Re: 9x 50J Cumulative PCNs - Northgate, Northwood - Hillingdon
Council
DIR By: Findingaway
Date: August 17, 2026, 11:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hippocrates link ---
>
> Hillingdon website grounds page? What does it show?
>
--- End Quote ---
The Hillingdon Council parks directory does not display the
street navigation from Duck's Hill Road into Northgate.
#Post#: 128078--------------------------------------------------
Re: 9x 50J Cumulative PCNs - Northgate, Northwood - Hillingdon
Council
DIR By: tincombe
Date: August 17, 2026, 2:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[i]The first actual no turn to the right was blocked by foliage
- this is the sign at the Manor. [i]
So not the one you've circled or referred to or the one referred
to by the authority.
I am not trying to be picky for fun. When you make an argument,
it should not have the wrinkles yours does. I think you should
focus on the multi-penalty being disproportionate. By all means
add that you don't disregard traffic signs for fun and that
there must have been a reason why - previous GSV show that the
tree adjacent to the traffic sign specified by the council is
prone to epicormic growth which has the capacity to throw out
clusters of dense foliage.
#Post#: 128089--------------------------------------------------
Re: 9x 50J Cumulative PCNs - Northgate, Northwood - Hillingdon
Council
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: August 17, 2026, 4:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Findingaway link ---
>
> Is there a reason why the post is not getting replies?
>
--- End Quote ---
Because we are all volunteers and some of us are dealing with
Judicial Review matters. PM reeived.
#Post#: 128103--------------------------------------------------
Re: 9x 50J Cumulative PCNs - Northgate, Northwood - Hillingdon
Council
DIR By: Findingaway
Date: August 18, 2026, 3:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: tincombe link ---
>
> As regards signage, if you look at GSV, the NRT has been in
place for nearly 20 years. Which begs the question: why was it
only recently that you started to use the road? What could you
put to an adjudicator on this point?
>
> You also seem to have side-stepped this comment in the NOR:
'..there are several signs as you approach Northgate, informing
motorists of the restriction ahead'
>
> And indeed there is a large one at the j/w Manor House Drive.
>
> Apparently you made reference to using satnav which IMO would
likely lead an adjudicator to think: not paying attention to
road signs. But given that the restriction has been there for
some time and the age of your car, surely satnav did not direct
you to take this turn?
>
>
> Also, which road prohibits the right turn? It certainly isn't
Northgate, so why give this as the location? Is giving the
location of the camera sufficient? Others will have views.
>
> Would you please catalogue the dates of contravention and
corresponding dates of issue of the PCNs and NORs and whether
the discount has been re-offered. Let's see what options you
have.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you for looking for possible loopholes — it really does
help, so I appreciate it.
Perhaps I wasn’t very clear in my earlier post. There are only
two relevant signs from the council:
The “No Right Turn” sign at the Manor, which is the one I
circled in the image I shared. You can’t actually see the Manor
in the image because it’s outside the frame. This is the only
“No Right Turn” sign, and it was the one obscured by the
foliage.
There is then a second sign at the beginning of the road that
you’re not supposed to enter, which is an “Only Buses and
Bicycles” sign. That sign also isn’t visible in the CCTV.
My point is that once you’ve committed to the turn because the
“No Right Turn” sign is obscured, I don’t think it would be safe
or realistic to suddenly stop just before entering the road. At
that point you’re already committed to the manoeuvre and need to
be looking out for oncoming traffic, pedestrians etc. Stopping
unexpectedly could potentially be dangerous.
I’m also struggling financially to pay even the discounted
fines, so taking this to the tribunal and losing would put me in
a very difficult position. I’m not trying to avoid paying if I’m
in the wrong — I would be willing to accept paying the first one
if that helps make my case — but I’m finding it really unfair to
be penalised multiple times when the main restriction sign was
not clearly visible because it was covered by foliage and they
took over 2 weeks to send me the first PCN.
I’m just trying to work out whether I have a reasonable case
before taking the risk of going to tribunal and potentially
ending up with several full penalties.
#Post#: 128104--------------------------------------------------
Re: 9x 50J Cumulative PCNs - Northgate, Northwood - Hillingdon
Council
DIR By: Findingaway
Date: August 18, 2026, 3:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hippocrates link ---
>
> [quote author=Findingaway link=topic=11750.msg128002#msg128002
date=1786967755]
> Is there a reason why the post is not getting replies?
>
--- End Quote ---
Because we are all volunteers and some of us are dealing with
Judicial Review matters. PM reeived.
[/quote]
Hello - your help is very much appreciated. I thought I didn't
write my post properly as I was seeing posts written after mine
getting responses, so I thought I made a mistake I needed to
correct.
#Post#: 128108--------------------------------------------------
Re: 9x 50J Cumulative PCNs - Northgate, Northwood - Hillingdon
Council
DIR By: tincombe
Date: August 18, 2026, 3:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
You're putting us under pressure because you're under pressure
because you know whether the discounts were re-offered and when
they expire. But we don't.
Would you please catalogue the dates of contravention and
corresponding dates of issue of the PCNs and NORs and whether
the discount has been re-offered. Let's see what options you
have.
You drew our attention to the sign/foliage issue at the turn,
but now you say that the preceding sign was obscured. Is this
still the case?
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